He was "speaking as a citizen," eh? We shouldn't make too much of it, because lots of other just-a-citizens get to be guests on Hardball all the time.

Maybe he could wear a special hat to let everyone know when he's speaking as "just a citizen" rather than as the managing editor of Time.

yeah seriously. just unreal at times.

His attitude is "offputting"? I think he should be fired. How's that for offputting? He wasn't invited onto Chris Matthews' show as a "private citizen". He was invited as the editor of Time.

And frankly, Time is a joke right now. It's been declining in quality for years, and now it's a joke. Half of the issues are about the 100 most influential people, and the other half are about cool stuff we'll have in the future.

Not, you know, about actual news.

And the information that is in there is packaged in People magazine fashion.

I'm subscribing to it only because I got a free years subscription for supporting my local NPR station.

Honest.

Oops. The 2:28 is from me.

And I imagine when Ricky Stengel is invited to his nightly Beltway and Upper West Side cocktail parties, that he is only invited as a "private citizen" as opposed to being the editor of the country's leading news magazine.

Right, Dick?

-

Hearings into what happened in the very recent past could and should help prevent this kind of skulldaggery from happening again...

So the past and the future are very much connected, Mr. Stengel.

Occam's Razor says — Corporate-people like Stengel get promoted to positions like his because he has learned to parrot the opinions & attitudes of his superiors who promote sycophants and game-players. After years of honing this skill, he has lost all objectivity and the ability to turn it off. He is an errand boy for grocery clerks.

Um, 'focusing on the past'? As opposed to, say, the GOP and Whitewater?

Jeebus, the Dems are focusing on what this maladministration has been doing to government (and, by extension, the country) for the last six years, and what they're still doing (or trying to do). Can we use 'f*ing clueless' to describe you, Mr Stengel?

Mr. Stengel, I'm going to say this in words I think you'll be able to understand: go Cheney yourself.

.

Well shit, Rick, why don't we all just forget about "settling scores" and eliminate Congress' oversight responsibilities?

Hell, why don't we eliminate the Department of Justice while we're at it?

.

Stengel is the managing editor of a weekly devoted to...looking back. That's what newsweeklies do with the bulk of their pages.

and, of course, the attorney purge only took place quite recently and the full ramifications are still unknown: is he seriously classifying this as some sort of ancient history, as if the dems suddenly wanted to investigate iran-contra or something?

frankly, i've never heard of stengel before this and maybe this isn't typical for him, but if it is, he's an idiot.

I actually think he's right, in the sense that the Dems had better get something on Rove that actually sticks one of these times, or else Rove will begin to be able to say the same thing about himself that Pres. Clinton can legitimately say: my opponents investigate and investigate and investigate, but they can never find anything. Don't get me wrong, I wish Rove were gone, and I think it's clear he's a sleazy operator, but at a certain point people are going to expect a criminal indictment, or something so egregious that he is forced to resign or get fired. otherwise it's going to look like death by a thousand cuts.

PS: security code = "brain"

It's nice to know that concern trolls have other career opportunities.

The tin foil hat in me says they hounded Clinton to death with investigations in order to sicken the public on investigating government wrongdoing. Now they think that the revulsion people felt about the Clinton witch-hunts can be brought to bear on the Republican scandals. Sorry, apples and oranges, KKKarl... The "Culture of Corruption" is so prevalent that even people living under a rock know that something has to be done to save the Republic. I applaud, cheer, stomp, hoot and holler my support of the Democrats finally conducting some long overdue oversight. I know it is slowing down the pace of government business that does, indeed, need to be taken care of. But if the body politic is riddled with cancer, better to take off some time for chemo and recuperation than to ignore the disease.

Maybe since he is so fond of speaking as a "citizen" while a Time editor, someone should encourage him to speak as a citizen permanently.

Why would TIME want someone so irresponsible or uninformed to work for them, unless TIME is also irresponsible or uninformed.

What about all the US saber-rattling that is going on in the Persian Gulf? Is it "uncitizenly" also to not understand that?

Apparently he prefers Congress provide oversight on scandals yet to come rather than those that have already happened.

These pundits have no clue about what average Americans think. Their views of "public opinion" really and truly come from each other. Just like the CW on Obama - that he lacks substance. They just blather amongst themselves and them deem it "public opinion". They don't have a clue what goes on outside the Beltway.

"If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores, that's not good for the Democrats or the country. And I would make the exact same statement about the Republicans if they were in this situation."

That's why we heard so much from Time about how awful it was for the country when Rove, Delay, Frist, and the Gang went around settling scores with Democrats from 2000 through 2006, right Rick? And before them, there was so damn much in Time about how awful it was what the GOP was doing to Clinton and his wife, right Rick?

Hello? Rick? Anyone there, Rick?

"And frankly, Time is a joke right now. It's been declining in quality for years, and now it's a joke. Half of the issues are about the 100 most influential people, and the other half are about cool stuff we'll have in the future."

Don't forget the religion-themed cover stories that come along every couple months. Big sellers.

"Are angels real?"

It's hard to take this guy, or his magazine, which is sort of a political "Us", seriously. Especially after this.

As someone in the Swampland comments pointed out, Stengle's viewpoint is especially troublesome when you consider the fact that the latest issue of Time offered a completely different cover story to its American audience than to its international audience. It makes you wonder if a. they might actually think Americans are too stupid to understand these issues or b. they know their demographic and their demographic REALLY IS this stupid.

Literally everything moribund and "gatheringly extinct" (Reynolds) is embodied in Stengel's attitude, both on and off Hardball. He does not get it. He's an (undoubtedly) overpaid editor of a completely laughable publication that's only read (believe it) while people get their oil changed or are waiting in the dentist's/doctor's office. That's it. Everybody knows it. I got my oil changed a couple weeks ago and pulled Time out of the pile of magazines and basically looked at the pictures. That's all they're good for - nice, glossy pictures.

But frigging news? Ha. Please. Stengel (and Mathews, God knows) are members of the luxo-journo class, willfully ignorant and tending their gardens of billowing dollars. He's fully the problem, and you know what, Mr. Stengel? The Internet is the cure. Talkingpointsmemo is the cure. They do the muckraking, and you flop in the muck. You're worse than irrelevant. You're an aider and abetter of wannabe authoritarians.

I swear...either help us in the good fight or get out of the f**king way already.

We wouldn't want to push these scandals too hard, lest we end up with control of all three branches of government the way the GOP did after overreaching with PenisPeachment.

Of course there is one minor difference between these scandals and the Gingrich scandal-mongering of yesteryear: these bastards are guilty as sin.

Oh, there's another difference. After eight years of non-stop, 24/7 investigations, subpoenas, oversight, and millions of taxpayer dollars, all the GOP had was one plea and a failed impeachment of a popular President to show for it.

We, on the other hand, have had six years of no accountability, stonewalling, cowed media coverage and public thirsting for oversight of the most unpopular and failed Presidencies in American history.

So by all means, Dems, be afraid. We didn't have oversight for six years -- let's not start now! I mean, if the editor of a newsweekly doesn't like to see coverage of political scandals, what hope do we have?

Why pay for Time when you can get TPM for free? Donating to this site would be a better use of my resources.

Such silly beltwayism. Investigations are like negative campaign ads. If they are done in an overblown, false, or rediculous manner (see: Lincoln Bedroom), there will be political blowback. If the investigation or ad focuses on legitimate bad acts from the opponent's past, however, there is no political downside.

In other words, investigations need to focus on actual wrong-doing. It's not a fancy test.

I don't really care what he's speaking as. I care about what he's saying. And what he said is absurd.

The MSM has been covering these obviously justified investigations for all of a couple weeks now and they want to push this "fatigue" bullshit? Funny, I don't remember them doing that after YEARS of unjustified Clinton investigations.

Can you say "double standard"?

How about "media whore"?

td: "He is an errand boy for grocery clerks."

Speaking as a grocery clerk, I wouldn't trust this weasel Stengel to run my errands.

The U.S. Attorney scandal, not just the investigation of it, occurred in the last four month. After the 2006 election.

How on earth is that focusing on the past?

Are we not allowed to investigate anything that happened in the past, no matter how recent?

Stengel: You're living in the past, man! That's SO December 2006. Sheesh.

The arrogance of the press is such that they like top believe they represent the will of the people. Stengal meant that he wouldn't like it if Demcrats show them up as dishonest crooks. After all, he's a very wealthy man, and he's no doubt done quite well under Bush.

To presume his subjective feeling is more valid than the will of the people in their election of a Democratic Congress demonstrates they are no longer objective reporters safeguarding our democracy, but only elitist hacks looking out for their own interests.

That the Democrats are going overboard in investigating the Bush administration is becoming an essential Republican talking point -- in spite of poll results that show, for instance, that Americans overwhelmingly support a congressional investigation into White House involvement in the firing of the U.S. attorneys.

The latest salvo: A blistering White House response to a Washington Times story this morning in which Jon Ward reports that "House Democrats are set today to bring in private sector lawyers -- at a cost of up to $225,000 over the next nine months -- to help committee staff investigate the Bush administration."

The White House this morning e-mailed reporters this statement from Perino: "The House Judiciary Committee's decision to award a $225,000 contract to a private law firm for work related to the dismissal of U.S. Attorneys is further evidence that Democrats care more about investigations than legislation. The contract does not devote one penny to the challenges the American people expect their leaders to address, like protecting American citizens from terror, decreasing our dependence on foreign sources of energy, and making health care more affordable. Instead of funding show trials, the Democrats should show they care about passing a responsible budget and giving our military commanders in Iraq the resources they need to win. We look forward to the House Judiciary Committee's disclosure of its bidding process for awarding this taxpayer-funded contract."

Stengel, by willingly turning a blind eye to GOP corruption, is endorsing it, for all intents and purposes.

Forget "settling scores." Stengle is viewing the situation through the lens of right-wing propaganda -- which seems to be how most mainstream journalists view the world these days. Democrats in pursuit of Rove is more accurately interpreted as an obsession with upholding their oath to "support the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic." If ever there was a domestic enemy, it is this administration, which has proven to be far more loyal to Saudi Arabia than to the U.S. Democrats should obsess about getting rid of them. Doing so could help stop this dictatorship. They should get on with it.

There's a name for a guy like Little Ricky, and it rhymes with "smooshbag".

barcopfan- "Mr. Stengel, I'm going to say this in words I think you'll be able to understand: go Cheney yourself."

what, he should get drunk and shoot somebody in the face?

The concept of the "citizen-journalist" is so current these days, and so important. Think of all the people (I only lurked, but ever thankfully) who helped Josh and the crew sift through the Attorney-Purge document dump. Think of the live-bloggers at the Libby trial. There have been many excellent examples, with much more of it to come.

Think of the process, how it naturally unfolds. Based on their sense of citizenship people extend themselves into the chop wood - carry water work of journalistic research.

It's an organic kind of thing. What matters to them as citizens in a natural way leads them into a journalistic mode.

What's going on with Mr. Stengel is some kind of bizarro opposite. He is neither a responsible citizen nor a productive journalist anymore.

If Karl Rove has purposely damaged the nation of which he and Stengel are citizens, and evidence of that comes to light, and Stengel's periodical reports it, then the satisfaction should be in helping expose a wrong, not just engaging in some headline-generating drama.

Be a decent citizen and be a responsible journalist and you won't find there is any divide between the two.

Or get out of journalism. Apparently that's happened already.

Greg,

Great post - this story needs to keep going, and it seems to be getting at least some traction and attention from the MSM, so that's nice.

The key thing I would add is the question of *why* the public might, in fact, come to see this type of sharp oversight as "settling scores," "harping," "dwelling in the past," etc. Just because polls show that the public supports it now doesn't mean they won't start thinking Stengel's way in the future. But the reason they often do so is because that's the frame that Republicans will put out there, to journalist after journalist, in every possible forum! That is exactly the framing that is most favorable to the people who are subject to the oversight, so of course that's how they will try to spin it. Stengel *anticipates* that, because that's what has happened time after time for the past 15 years - the Republican media machine has become incredibly good at deciding on a common frame and saturating the media environment with it, and this is one of their workhorse frames for Democratic attempts to curtail their questionable activities. The problem, of course, is that by giving voice to that anticipation, Stengel in fact creates and perpetuates the result - wittingly or not, he's part of creating that frame. It's a vicious circle, and it needs to be cut out at the root. Gingrich and Rove realized this ages ago, and the press has been obliviously along for the ride ever since.

Stengel's just another Ivy League shithead David Broder wannabe. Why should anyone care what he and his pitiful corporate rag think, do or say? With a bit of luck, Time will be dead and buried in ten years time, and Stengel will be just another bloviating fellow at the Aspen Institute -- or some corporate-funded holding pen for over-educated, under-employed scatter brains.

I swear, worrying about these people is like worrying about dinosaurs. They're already extinct -- they just haven't had the good grace to lie down and die.

Given that the attorney purge only happened in December, and we only found out about it earlier this year, I'd say Stengel's concept of "focusing on the past" bears some relation to this skit:

Rufus T. Firefly: And now, members of the cabinet...
[pounds gavel]
Rufus T. Firefly: we'll take up old business.
Cabinet Member: I wish to discuss the tariff.
Rufus T. Firefly: Sit down, that's new business. No old business? Very well...
[pounds gavel]
Rufus T. Firefly: we'll take up new business.
Cabinet Member: Now, about that tariff...
Rufus T. Firefly: Too late, that's old business already. Sit down.

Perhaps if there really was not much substance to the charges, like if the Dems were, say, trying to get Rove for perjury about a little extra-marital nookie (I know, it's hard to imagine), it might turn the public off. But if Rove is behind an attempt to turn the might of the US government against free and fair elections? I don't think they would see this as settling scores.

Of course Republicans (aided by the press) are always going to say Democrats shouldn't investigate. What else are they going to do - tell the truth about what crooks they really are?

The way Democrats get around this talking point is to constantly point out that Bill Clinton was investigated incessantly by Republicans for six years, and yet his presidency was a great success. Democrats are just trying to make Bush the very best president he can be.

Looking forward, not backward = being doomed to re-live history.

Accountability is not the same thing as revenge. It is long past time to remind the administration and their apologists that we will no longer allow them to change the definitions of uncomfortable or politically inconvenient words.

Investigations, impeachment, and indictment are the best tools for repairing our broken democracy.

Use them now.

"If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores, that's not good for the Democrats or the country."

Rick Stengel obviously intends to make sure that his readers see the Democrats that way. As the Managing Editor of Time Magazine, he still has more influence on public perception than any of us. It's too bad that his view of what's "good for the country" does not comprise preventing further abuse of power, obstruction of justice and corruption of public officials -- pointing these things out has become bad form in Rick Stengel's social set.

I think comments like these by Stengel are intended -- naively -- to intimidate Dems. It just isn't even close to objective journalistic comment. It's political opinion. Sounds like he has taken his cues from RNC daily talking points.
This turd should be fired. Totally shameless. I'd be embarrassed saying things like this.

I find Stengel's wording interesting:

I think it's unfortunate and perhaps short-sighted for Democrats to be perceived as focusing on the past rather than the future.

It's unfortunate for them to be perceived as focusing on the past. I don't know if this is deliberate, or if these guys are just so used to focusing on political perceptions and so incapable of focusing on whether actions are actually good for the country or not that they can't even talk in normal terms anymore.

But assuming for the moment it was deliberate, then yeah, Rick, I think it would be bad if they were perceived as "focusing on the past rather than the future" -- but how would people get that perception? Mmmm...maybe because people like you get on Chris Mathews' show and tell Americans that's all this is, that there's nothing but score-settling going on, that it's not actually a serious issue for the country to be concerned about? Just maybe? Christ.

OK, I could have just saved a lot of typing by saying, "What HenryFTP said."

Why is anyone interested in the 'basis' of Stengel's assertion? It is his opinion. He is entitled to unsubstantiated opinions, especially if they are political, no?

At least that is how diversity of opinion is being touted on TPM cafe of late, when trolls come in and post comment after comment against poltical candidates without any 'basis' for those assertions. Their actions are defended as their opinions.

Long standing members of the community have been admonished for troll rating the posts that are full of inaccurate generalizations, negative innuendos and false rumors repeatedly by the same posters attacking the same candidate.

It is the political season and folks can bloviate ad nauseum without having any 'basis' for their assertions and unsubstantiated opinions.

So Stengel gets to say whatever he wants, whether we disagree with him or not.

Ned Balzer, since no one else has responded to you, it falls to me:

so far, the only time karl rove has been investigated is by patrick fitzgerald, not by democrats, and he came thisclose to being indicted.

now, for the first time, there is an investigation by democrats and it appears rove has some useful information to share about it. there hasn't even been a subpoena issued to him yet.

so where, exactly, are the thousand cuts you are talking about?

I can remember back in the early 1960s when Time magazine must have first introduced opinion columns. Time was quite pro-Vietnam war then, under the control of Henry Luce who "was an influential member of the Republican Party" according to present day Wikipedia. So when there was the announcement of the forthcoming opinion columnists some wiseacre said: "This is going to come as a real shock to those writing in Time who thought that they were already giving opinions in their articles."

just like the editorial pages of wsj and wapo think that the 'firewall' between the news/journalism side and the editorial/opinion side is there to prevent the basic facts established by the news side from polluting their opinions and keeping them from framing issues however the f*@k they want, so it is with stengel. he knows what the polls say but he wants them to say something else, so he opens his mouth and shoves his preferred storyline into the ears of anyone fool enough to listen, hoping to push the polling in the other direction.

Would not read Time even at the doctor's office or oil change. It's declined that badly. (Grew up reading it in the '60s; loved it then.)

Bill Kristol is a columnist for Time. Mr. Stengel has appalling judgement. 'Nuff said.

security code: polish. Time magazine is glossy as polish and vapid as can be.

Well, golly, Ricky, we sure don't want people to get mad at us. Maybe we should just ask Karl if he's having a nice day and what his favorite flavor of ice cream is. Then maybe all the meanies will start being nice to us.

Ya think???

I am not just saying this for effect.

Karl Rove, Dick Chenney & George W are criminals, who think that the laws of this land do not apply to them. The Dems should (I hope) go after these guys.

BTW...I think I have bought/read my last Time magazine.

whiterosebuddy:

the point isn't that stengel isn't permitted his opinions, the point is that stengel isn't permitted his own facts.

if stengel had said that HE didn't think the dems should investigate, that would be one thing. but he said that VOTERS didn't think the dems should investigate.

that is an assertion, not an opinion. and it is an assertion for which not only is there is no basis, but there is ample evidence to the contrary.

I also find disreputable this whole idea that Democrats can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That they're focussing so much on investigations that nothing else is getting done. This Congress did more in the first 100 hours than the last one did in two years.(if you don't count what they did with underage pages) They just passed measures in both houses of Congress setting a deadline for the withdrawal of troops. And yet another bloviating windbag on the same panel said that Democrats were only investigating in order to "change the subject" from Iraq. As if Democrats wanted divert attention away from Bush's spectacular disaster.

If nothing else, these news panel shows demonstrate how clueless, biased and insulated these media elites really are. They are the closest thing to a monarchy that we have - which is why they love the Republicans. You can't vote them out of office or impeach them for incompetence. All you can do is throw things at the screen while they look down their noses at you.

Rick Stengel gives us an un-surprising look at the big picture, wherein Time-Warner Inc. (parent of Time, CNN, People, etc.) has proven again and again that it exists to lull the masses, reinforce the status-quo and NEVER rock the boat. The smug Ivy Leaguers who run Time-Warner are the most provincial, New York-centric assholes there are, period. (I know, I used to work there.) They despise Americans west of the Hudson, think they're dumb. They patronize and despise political populism. True New Yorkers, they traffic in titillation and scandal. Assuming Bill Clinton's blow job was impeachable, Time et al pushed the pedal to the metal, despite his political support that never fell below 60 percent. Now Time's ME ignores the real damage being done to the Republic by the Bush administration and charges that its defenders are overreacting. What does he care? Truly American values? It's all just richly rewarded commerce to the elitist folks on Sixth Avenue.

"I think it's unfortunate and perhaps short-sighted for Democrats to be perceived as focusing on the past rather than the future. If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores, that's not good for the Democrats or the country."

I hear ya. I mean...every time the justice system reflects on the issues in the past, like, say, criminal behavior, negligence, and general malfeasance, I also think it's bad for the country. Bad for democracy in general. I mean, come on, can't we just think about the future? Bygones, man. Bygones.

Rove and Co. should be in jail.

Sorry Sir, you're the editor at Time Magazine? ,.....this corruption investigation is about a future plan to put in republican friendly operatives in key states for the 2008 election. If you don't see that or hear that,.... then you are deaf, dumb, and blind.

The American public wants accountability for this obtruction of Justice! Why should Bush be afraid when he has nothing to hide?

Does speaking as a citizen give you the right to be totally fuckin stupid and unsupported in your assertions? If so, and speaking purely as a citizen, I say Stengel sleeps in a yellow nightie and eats puppies for breakfast.

I'm not sure "as a citizen" is the right answer here. Because that indicates that this citizen leans very right. More liberal media bias I guess for the file.

Okay, he's speaking as a "citizen." He should've included the words "poorly informed" in front of it.

As a citizen, I think it's unfortunate that Rick Stengel doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

"...unfortunate and perhaps short-sighted for Democrats to be perceived as focusing on the past rather than the future. If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores, that's not good for the Democrats..."

This are true statements, but they aren't happening. What he and his ilk are trying to do is make them happen. Make America percieve Dems as focusing on the past and investigating obsessively. They won't succeed because America, in general, wants for find out what's been going on just as badly as Democrats do. I am really staring to believe that some of the Bush crime family, like Rove, may actually be held accountable for thier actions. Wouldn't that be something!

"Settling scores" is about politics and has nothing whatsoever to do with governance. However, the media and political class in DC long ago became confused about this basic distinction. That's what happens when the Newts, Delays, and Roves of the world end up in positions of power. Dirty politics gets confused with effective governance which results in illegal wars, infringed upon civil liberties, and treating the US Treasury like its a Black AMEX card for the top .1% of earners in the country. Is there something in the water in DC that turns people into shallow, myopic, self-absorbed a-holes over time? I smell a conspiracy...

TIME has no credibilty any more. Reader beware. Check other sources extensively.

What is "Ricky-boy" Stengel afraid of? Not getting invited to stick his head in the feedbag along with the other neo-con pigs-at-the-White-House-dinner-trough?

Perhaps Stengel should spend less time threatening the Democrats who are just beginning to start doing their jobs- and who are just commencing to stop cowering in the corner in fear of the imbecilic buffoon Bush & his neo-hitlerian side-kick Rove- and, more time comprehending the mess that this insane neo-con regime has lumbered us all with.

Rove should be frog-marched off-to-jail to be put on trial for treason- obstruction of justice- election rigging- etc. (and, yes, the evidence is indeed there to find him guilty).

Moreover, Bush should be impeached and put on trial for War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.

Remind me again, why, in the United States of America, we must find out the truth (see below) from foreign news services, because main-stream-media-toadies like Ricky-boy Stengel will not publish the truth vis-a-vis Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rove & Gonzales' murderous criminal actions. Time "magazine" should be ashamed of itself...

Notice that this is published by the U.K. Guardian, and is censored-by-consensus (by the neo-cons; the corporate-owned media; and the plutocratic traitors) here at home:--

"Counting the cost

The figures have now been vindicated by the government's own advisers. It's time we held our leaders to account for the 650,000 Iraqi dead..."...

Continue on http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_horton/2007/03/counting_the_cost.html ...

...
Please insist that Congress impeach the neo-con Bushies-- for they are not fit to serve our nation-- they have betrayed their oaths of office(s)-- and, they have treaded & trampled upon the U.S. Constitution & Bill of Rights.

How tacky...
Just how are the Democrats supposed to investigate the future? Was Ken Starr 'settling old scores'?
Why don't these guys just come out with it? Its an age old concept: They can dish it out but they cannot take it.

P.S.

"Ricky-boy" Stengel has the audacity to vomit:-- "But as a citizen, I think it's unfortunate and perhaps short-sighted for Democrats to be perceived as focusing on the past rather than the future. If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores, that's not good for the Democrats or the country. And I would make the exact same statement about the Republicans if they were in this situation."...

* Where was Stengel when Republicans denied Democrats the right to sit in meetings where legislation was being discussed?

* Where was Stengel when Republicans supported Bush's lies, Bush's war crimes, and Bush's outrageous violations of the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Geneva Conventions, the U.S. War Crimes Act, and, International Law?

* Where was Stengel when Karl "Joseph Goebbels" Rove was smearing John Kerry & other Democrats with bald-faced lies and rigging the elections held in the U.S.?

Stengel is unfit to be in journalism-- he is just another hypocritical toady who takes orders from Herr Fuhrer Bush, Reich Marshall Cheney, Propaganda Minister Rove and the rest of this sordid & squalid neo-con regime.

What's more, on TV, he doesn't have a very good Q Factor. Does not appear to be a pleasant person, in my perception. And perception, of course, is all important....

Well, shucks this whole war thing should never have really happened, when Bush called for attacks, he was speaking as a citizen.

An old journalism prof of mine, the venerable Pete Steffans, worked for Time in the 50s. He told us once of an assignment they recieved where they interviewed leaders in multiple fields about what they thought of then-Vice President Nixon's ability to be President. When they came back with the interviews, Time owner Henry Luce had all of the negative write-ups removed, which left a one-sided homage to the skills of Nixon.

So when did Time have any credibilty to lose, exactly?

Their recent expose on the fall of the right was a shallow farce as well.

Check this one out:
Role of the press.

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

It's been a long time since I subscribed to Time, picked up a copy of it (except in my doctor's waiting room), or thought it had any relevance. Newsweek fares a trifle better, and mostly because it does have a divergence of views and some good writing and insights. The MSM, except for factual reporting, appears to have become less and less relevant. I look for something with teeth in it, and the MSM over and over again has disappointed. It's almost as if they're holding themselves back. New York Times and LA Times both lack the courage of their convictions, and the Wall St Journal while it may have some admirable business fact reporting, has an editorial side that is positively in the Dark Ages with its right-wing propaganda slant.

He's speaking as a citizen alright--exactly the kind of citizen he truly is--out of touch and ignorant about what real Americans think. When will these idiots realize they're completely out of touch with the real world around them? They live in a world of their own making--fake and phony as it is self-serving.

Howard,

Sure, you're right, no thousand cuts yet.

I am only expressing a fear I have. He came this close to being indicted by Fitz, but he wasn't indicted. I'm only saying, I guess, that a wounded Rove is more dangerous than a "dead" one (figuratively speaking, of course). What I want to see is not *yet another* in a series of scandals in which Rove is implicated. I want to see him taken down, finally and completely.

-- Ned

"If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores, that's not good for the Democrats or the country. And I would make the exact same statement about the Republicans if they were in this situation."

Who's he trying to kid? The Republicans are ALWAYS in this situation. With Republicans, it's always party first, America second, and they are ALWAYS on a mission to destroy the Democrats. Anyone who thinks Clinton's impeachment was about something Clinton did doesn't understand what the Republicans have been up to for the past 50 or so years. They're working toward a one-party system. That's the goal, and if we don't kick their asses, they may just get there.

The newly, newly revised statement by Herr Stengel:

In reading your reaction to my comments on Chris Matthews, I realize that I've been caught out speaking as a citizen rather than as editor of Time. (That is, I pretended that people I’d sooner piss on than be associated with shared my opinion.)

Lord knows, the Democrats going after Karl Rove is "interesting" in an objective way for Time and for journalists in general. (And by 'interesting' I mean 'news' in the more traditional sense - before what drugs Anna Nicole had in her refrigerator became far more newsworthy than whether we were governed by crooks.)

It's hard to overstate Rove's role in this administration (or in breaking down the rule of law generally) and it would certainly create yards of headlines and good copy if the Democrats manage to get some traction. (But God forbid that the press would to do anything that might inform average citizens and help to clean up their government. Stop thinking about the past. The press now protects felons and traitors just to prevent Democratic traction - just ask Valerie Plame. You must be thinking about some other free press - one that wasn’t a big part of the problem.)

But as a citizen (of the media elite aristocracy, who look down our noses at the naive scum who must watch worthless media hacks on programs like Chris Matthews, inasmuch as we own the media), I think (and so does my accountant BTW) that it's unfortunate and perhaps short-sighted for Democrats to be perceived as focusing on the past (as if democracy would have worked out) rather than the future (when we will finally rule with an iron, even though perhaps thoroughly corrupt fist.)

If people see the Democrats as obsessively concerned with settling scores (and make no mistake about it - that's how we're going to play it, no matter how many felonies Republicans commit), that's not good for the Democrats or the country (because it's not good for me or any of the people who really matter.)

And I would make the exact same statement about the Republicans if they were in this situation. (That is to say, when Republicans were investigating Clinton's penis for six years, I might have objected if they had been investigating real corruption that I was also benefiting from financially.)

I find it so hypocritical that you guys can attack Stengel for saying "I am so uninterested in the Democrats going after Karl Rove" as a citizen, without ever mentioning Stengle's statement that immediately followed: "But as the editor of Time magazine, I really hope to fucking God that hookers wer involved."

So unfair.

Apologies for an off-topic comment, but I can't find a contact address to e-mail. Anyway, a request: anyway we could get Cap'n Marshall to give Horse's Mouth a front page link from talkingpointsmemo.com, or tpmcafe.com, or both?

Settling scores! I want my country back! There were those of us who, from the beginning, knew Bush was bullshit. I remember the "empty warhead found in the white House" protest signs. The problem with the MSM is that they are complicit in all of this BS coming out of the White House. They've been exposed and they don't like being relegated to the role of inconsequential. As far as I'm concerned the MSM has absolutely no credibility. Outside of Oberman I'd rather get my news from Comedy Central. I wouldn't pick up a copy of his magazine if it blew up on my porch. Time Magazine can go fuck itself.

I haven't taken Time or any of the "Newsweeklies etc" for anything other than propaganda for the right for years . . . along with the Washington Post Editorial page and NYTimes political reporting . . . years ago Carl Bernstein wrote an article on "Operation Mockingbird" for Rolling Stone on the compromise of the media by the CIA (read that right wing zealots . . . ) and you can see it clearly in these sources . . . it isn't "news" it's propaganda and mind control . . .

if by "speaking as a citizen" he means he's blowing it out of his ass, then i can grock that...

RT: I think I beat you to the "Duck Soup" analogy by a few minutes in the Swampland thread. :-)

Looking forward, not backward = re-living history

Accountability is not the same thing as revenge, no matter what any right wing shill tells you. It's past time to show the administration and its apologists that they are not allowed to change the meanings of uncomfortable or politically inconvenient words.

Investigation, impeachment, and indictment are our best tools for repairing our broken democracy.

In a nation of laws, the law must be applied. If laws have been broken, in this country, by this administration, then it is the duty of the congress to administrate justice.

If this country is to retain any degree of credibility, then the law of the land must be applied and evil doers punished.

For willful misleading us into a war. And for the war profiteers....prison for treason.

The underlying message in the meme that "Democrats are spending too much time investigating" is that the Democrats are not passing legislation.

That meme obscures the fact that the Dems ARE passing legislation at a much greater rate than we've seen in the last 12 years. They can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Newsweek best go check the thousands of pages they printed after the fact on WHITEWATER.

A true NON-STORY used by Newsweek and others to smear the Clinton administration.

Ever hear the name Michael Isikoff? Newsweek.

clarence swinney

Ned Balzer is correct.

Investigate a crime.

Democrats should not repeat the $110,000,000 spent(gao number) on hearings and investigations of the Clinton Adm.

They should not impeach as payback as Henry Hyde admitted was done to Clinton for Nixon.

Reagan was investigated with a Reagan Justice Department and Republican Senate.

137 were charged with crimes. The most in history. Actually, the 137 was more than the Total of all presidents between 1900 and 1980.

clarence swinney

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