Entire Field Of Credible Dem Candidates Has Gotten Fewer Divorces Than Rudy Alone
March 19, 2007 -- 04:21 PM EST // View Comments (261) // Post a Comment

Here's Joe Klein, writing in Time magazine about the Republican Presidential candidates' predilection for getting divorces:

Then again, the Republicans are fielding a motley crew right now: if you count Newt Gingrich, who'll probably join the fray in the fall, the four leading candidates have had nine marriages among them: Giuliani three, Gingrich three, McCain two and Romney one. The Republican faithful are left with a devil of a choice: moderate candidates who live like liberals, or religious conservatives who talk like liberals.

So Klein thinks getting a divorce is living like a "liberal"?

Okay, he obviously intends "live like liberals" to mean that this is how the "Republican faithful," not he himself, see this behavior. So, not really objectionable. But, hey, I had to get your attention somehow, and besides, this suggests a useful question:

How many divorces have their been among the men -- and women -- in the Democratic field? Let's run through them real quick, just for the fun of it. None of the following liberal Dem candidates has gotten divorced:

(1) Hillary: You know the story. No need to repeat it

(2) Obama: Married to Michelle, whom he met when she was just out of law school, for 15 years.

(3) Edwards: Married to Elizabeth since 1977; they've had four children, one of whom was killed in a car crash. As Andrew Sullivan recently observed: "Most couples never survive the death of a child. The Edwards family did — and went on to have two more."

(4) Richardson: Married to his high-school sweetheart for 33 years.

(5) Biden: First wife killed in car accident in 1972; married to his current wife for almost 30 years.

Yeah, you have to really scrape your way to the bottom of the Democratic field to find divorces. The only Dem Presidential candidate with any kind of credible shot who has gotten divorced is...Chris Dodd, who divorced in 1982.

In fact, if you think about it, the entire field of Dems deemed credible boasts fewer divorces than Rudy Giuliani alone!

Yes, there's also Dennis Kucinich, who also has divorced twice. Nonetheless, the basic points here stand: The top four GOP candidates have divorced a total of five times, while the top four liberal candidates have a total of zero divorces among them. And the whole field of Dems seen to have a credible shot at winning has gotten fewer total divorces than the current GOP frontrunner. Not exactly heavy lifting, admittedly, but it certainly seems worth noting and keeping in mind.


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-- Greg Sargent | Comments (261) | Post a Comment


COMMENTS:

Ok, but what does "religious conservatives who talk like liberals." mean?

Posted by: Jay B.
Date: March 19, 2007 04:34 PM

very good question. I feel like he sticks this sort of stuff in involuntarily

Posted by: Greg
Date: March 19, 2007 04:35 PM

Fewer divorces.

Posted by:
Date: March 19, 2007 04:35 PM

The GOP divorce numbers only get worse if Newt jumps in.

Sing it Tammy Wynette!

Posted by: bakho
Date: March 19, 2007 04:39 PM

For those who haven't already, folks should check out some state-by-state date on divorce rates just to see if there's a trend. You know, maybe some kind of a difference between red and blue states?

Posted by:
Date: March 19, 2007 04:42 PM

yeah, fewer. thx for the fix. always botch that one.

Posted by: Greg
Date: March 19, 2007 04:42 PM

Fox News Update: Rudy Guiliani married only three times; Top Five Democratic contenders married Five times.

/s

Posted by: ROGNM
Date: March 19, 2007 04:42 PM

The real irony on the Republican side is that it's the (cue scary music) Morman who has had only one wife.

Posted by: Ralph Kramden
Date: March 19, 2007 04:46 PM

Klein still has a paying job?

Posted by: JohnW
Date: March 19, 2007 04:46 PM

This is not all that hard to understand. It's called hypocrisy.

Besides, leave it to some up-and-coming right wing smearmeister to invent the brain-twisting dodge that Republican candidates are so in favor of marriage, they do it again and again. Or that democrats hate marriage because they do it so infrequently.

Posted by: gcs
Date: March 19, 2007 04:47 PM

By comparison with the Gingrich case, if Al Gore were to jump into the race, then the number of divorces of the Democratic front-runners would still be unchanged. Al Gore met Tipper Gore at his high school prom, and it doesn't get more "square" than that.

Posted by: Thread Theorist
Date: March 19, 2007 04:47 PM

"what does "religious conservatives who talk like liberals." mean?"

Huckabee. He thinks that government should do things, like provide infrastructure. Anathema to the crowd that believes Jesus instructed them to drown government in the bathtub.

Posted by: StatGirl
Date: March 19, 2007 04:47 PM

"Klein" - verb - to make inane, factless declarations about groups of people that "seem right", but when analyzed, are complete bull.

Example: He Kleined when he said that all Crawford, Texas residents love George W. Bush.

Posted by: Robert
Date: March 19, 2007 04:47 PM

Damn promiscuous Democrats - 5 marriages? When do we get to talk about Rudy and his concubine who he set up while still married? Is that off limits. Oh? Sorry.

Posted by: Hoppy
Date: March 19, 2007 04:48 PM

So I'm not the only one left in the world who cares about the less/fewer divide. Still I think it is a losing battle. I expect that fewer will be dropped in the near future--fewer and fewer people use it.

Posted by: Barbara Hobbs
Date: March 19, 2007 04:52 PM

There are the overt uses of divorce that could be put to political use...divorce Iraq, divorcing Healthcare, then thers the refusal to except that gays can marry...but will they let them divorce?

Posted by: Kevo
Date: March 19, 2007 04:55 PM

Ahem, I don't think it is true that most couples never survive the death of a child. That's a useful fiction for some rhetorical purposes. I posted a similar objection on Andrew Sullivan's blog.

I am not trying to take anything away from the Edwards -- the loss of a child is indeed very very difficult, but sometimes it actually strengthens a marriage or partnership.

Posted by: Ned Balzer
Date: March 19, 2007 05:02 PM

BOY, I'm glad we're going to have a serious debate about the future of this country now!

Oh wait. We aren't.

I'm a lifelong Dem, and I REFUSE to act like "them" to win something. Let bigmouths like Rush care about this crap and lets focus on some issues. Don't give voters yet another reason to choose the lesser of two evils.... give them a reason to vote for a better government.

Posted by: Dave
Date: March 19, 2007 05:03 PM

Divorce is a liberal issue?

Well, in addition to the value of the top tier candidates, that should mean that famed 'liberal' states should have high divorce rates, correct? Well, the state with the lowest divorce rate is: Massachusetts.

Others in the lowest tier of divorce rates include Connecticut, New York, New Jersey.

Even California, famed for Hollywood Divorces, is easily in the upper half at number 17 (1990 data, the last year for which this is available in California. Texas clocked in at #33 in that year.)

Nevada has almost halved its divorce rate as it began trending blue.

Too move past anecdotes, which are easy to cherry pick, let's try the rigor of statistics. A correlation, between the divorce rate data and Bush voting, shows a correlation of .38 between percentage of the states popular vote going to Bush in 2000 and divorce rates. For this kind of data, that's fairly strong.

So, the statistical data, backed up with the anecdotal data on front running candidates, gives us a clear answer: Divorce is more prominent among conservatives, both citizens and leaders, than among liberals.

Think about that, next time you hear a Romney bash Massachusetts 'liberal values'. Perhaps some of them rubbed off on him, which is how his was the only marriage that stuck among his Republican peers.

Posted by: Fides
Date: March 19, 2007 05:05 PM

Puleeeze: it's "fewer divorces" not "less divorces".

Posted by: CH
Date: March 19, 2007 05:12 PM

The Republicans are the "Family Values" party. In fact, they love family values so much that they just want to start as many families as possible. I think that's the way it works...

Posted by: Mark F.
Date: March 19, 2007 05:13 PM

They may 'live like liberals' but they still drink, embezzle, accept bribes, and molest young boys like Republicans!

Posted by: BushYouth
Date: March 19, 2007 05:13 PM

Yeah, but Hillary doesn't really love him, does she? Didn't she just stick with him because she was addicted to power? And there we have the difference:

The Dems don't really love their spouses. They're just for show.

The GOP guys love their spouses. At least, they love the spouse they're with. Today. For the foreseeable future. Next time you see Newt at the Capitol, ask yourself: Is he gladhanding, or cruising for young blond staffers?

Posted by: Long Memory
Date: March 19, 2007 05:14 PM

I'll have to look it up, but I believe that in almost every category regarding the Right's idea of "family values", the red states are trounced by the blue states! Says an awful lot about perceptions. About repeating something erroneous often enough...etc. You know like saying Saddam and al Qaida in the same sentence over and over until nearly 70% of the country believed he had something to do with Sept. 11th. Ugh.

Posted by: MK
Date: March 19, 2007 05:15 PM

Re: Lowest Divorce Rate: Massachusetts
Spot on. In fact, for more red/blue data that will make your teeth hurt, check out f***thesouth.com Unbef***inglievable.

Posted by: kbanginmotown
Date: March 19, 2007 05:15 PM

Kucinich could probably claim that the divorces weren't his idea.

Posted by: Jon H
Date: March 19, 2007 05:16 PM

There IS an underlying story here. Giuliani and Gingrich have had multiple marriages because they have self-control issues. Obviously, Bill Clinton had control issues as well. But where Giuliani and Gingrich part with Bill Clinton is that they both seek to control their impulses by dominating other people. That's what makes them such lousy human beings.

To the contrary, Hillary is known for her steely self-control. I think the same can be said for Obama and Edwards. Actually, Edwards is so self-controlled he gives me the creeps. That's the main reason why I'm not voting for him.

One might think that the kind of moral self-control exhibited by the Democrats would appeal in the more conservative and religious areas of the country.

But the opposite is the case. Here in Kentucky, and I'm sure the same is true in other Southern states, Hillary-esque control is frowned on. Men especially are expected to be impulsive. That's one reasons why there's so much emphasis on punishment in the South (the other is race). Neither parents, schools, nor state legislatures believe that people are capable of the self-control necessary to regulate behavior. As a result, they all emphasize that behavior has to be controlled through external punishments.

That's a good part of the cultural reason why it's going to be easier for white Southerners to understand Gingrich and Giuliani than the Democrats.

Posted by: RedStateImpressions
Date: March 19, 2007 05:17 PM

I know "gotten" is a past participle of "get", but it still just doesn't look like proper English when read rather than heard.

Of course, growing up in Texas I'm used to hearing people say they have "gotten" things.

Yep, still weird to read.

Posted by: Bill
Date: March 19, 2007 05:23 PM

Clearly, the Republican field doesn't believe in the "integrity of marriage"?

Posted by: ckelly
Date: March 19, 2007 05:23 PM

hillary "darling of the DLC" clinton is a liberal??? John "DLC" Edwards a liberal?Richardson? Biden? Dodd? Liberals????

Boy, the definition of liberal sure has changed since the days of Roosevelt, Kennedy and Johnson. Either that or someone can't tell a liberal from a stealth repubenron.

Posted by: Harry
Date: March 19, 2007 05:27 PM

It's still a year and a half away from the Republican nomination, and there are other declared candidates running.
Dr. Ron Paul has been married only once.
I don't know about any of the others.

Posted by: Tom G
Date: March 19, 2007 05:30 PM

Ru Paul is running as a Republican?

Posted by: Disputo
Date: March 19, 2007 05:46 PM

Ron Paul has even less hope than Chris Dodd, and that's saying a lot.

Posted by: RedStateImpressions
Date: March 19, 2007 05:47 PM

It may sound nitpicky, but I think it speaks volumes: Neither Klein nor Huckabee seem to know what the 2nd Commandment actually says.

Huckabee claims it's "Do unto others...," which is not even one of the 10 at all. Klein seems to be saying it has something to do with divorce.

-------------
Ironically, of course, it's "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." Ironic because Klein specifically says "2nd Commandment" folks aren't interested in "Thou Shalt Nots". Ironic because Huckabee's claim to be such a great, caring, Christian guy misquotes the Bible (and Klein runs with it all the way). And so ironic I just might cry because it's the big one SPECIFICALLY ABOUT NOT INVOKING GOD FOR PERSONAL ADVANTAGE.
-------------

Ok, so I wrote that little rant then realized that not everyone breaks the 10 down that way, and most people mentioned are clearly Protestant or evangelical, not Catholic. That said, the second commandment any way you slice it is not even remotely related to divorce, or the Golden Rule, or anything mentioned. It's about proper respect for the One True God(TM).

The second COVENANT (re: New Testament, the last 3rd of the Christian version, the uh, Jesus parts) is the stuff about loving your fellow man. Does any one at Time bother to check this shit anymore?

Posted by: DMFA
Date: March 19, 2007 05:59 PM

Republicans' idea of 'Family Values' is probably 'Having a lot of families'.

Posted by: Saguaro
Date: March 19, 2007 06:15 PM

It seems the right has made such a caricature of "liberals" that it no longer describes anyone on the left. Rather, in this particular articel, behaving and speaking "like a liberal" seems to mean behaving and speaking like a conservative. It is truly mind bending the logical distortions these folks will use to keep the voting public distracted from real issues of governance.

Posted by: gex
Date: March 19, 2007 06:23 PM

Okay, practicing Episcopalian that I am, I happened to have the Book of Common Prayer lying around, turn to page 350, it being Lent and all, and find that the Second Commandment says, "You shall not make for yourself any idol."

The one about adultery, which comes closest to any plausible relationship to divorce, is number seven.

Before the election last November, Stephen Colbert interviewed some Republican congressman in his ongoing Better Know A District series. This guy wanted to put the Ten Commandments up everywhere. Colbert asked him to name the commandments and he didn't know a single one.

All this bloviating about religion is exactly that. A lot of people don't know anything about it and want credit for being self-righteous.

Posted by: Delia
Date: March 19, 2007 06:25 PM

It doesn't surprise me that the red states have higher levels of divorce than the blue states. It's no secret that fear is the driving force behind the authoritarian impulse - fear of social breakdown, fear of violence, etc. The authoritarian promises strength in the face of these threats. Obviously, such an appeal is more effective if the targets see real reason to be afraid. In this case, widespread divorce creates fear of social breakdown, and that fear drives a yearning for greater top-down social control.

Posted by: Leo
Date: March 19, 2007 06:34 PM

Danged cut & run Republicans.....

Posted by: Andy K
Date: March 19, 2007 06:34 PM

I thought the second commandment was the right to bear arms? ;)

And kbanginmotown: finally, someone who knows where to put the "f***ing" in "unbef***inglievable." That's got it all over less/fewer any day.

Posted by: klk
Date: March 19, 2007 07:09 PM

Isn't it possible that part of what strengthens right-wing 'family values' in Red States is the prevalence of divorce, crime, dysfunction and general godlessness? Think about it. Where are matters of divorce and marriage more likely to be a big issue than in societies where divorce is frequent, crime is high, and marriages are frequently turbulent? You can say this all amounts to hypocrisy on a grand scale, but I think that simplifies the issue. Extreme religiosity and extreme sinfulness go hand in hand, and feed off the energy the other produces. Some people are extremely religious, some people are delinquent, and some are delinquent on Saturday and religious on Sunday. This antagonism leads to a stricter penal code, harsher penalties, and more hardened criminals (a key contributor to divorce). On the other side of the equation, it leads to a stronger backlash against the ever-visible delinquency in society by fundamentalist, Pentecostals and other social conservatives. If you get a chance, see a fascinating documentary about small town Southern and Appalachian culture called 'Searching for the Wrong Eyed Jesus'. It's an extreme example, but it does underline the basic cultural phenomenon I'm talking about.

Posted by: Pan Pan
Date: March 19, 2007 07:54 PM

This whole discussion plays into the idea that there's something wrong with divorce - you're dissecting the candidates on the Republicans' terms. As a divorcee, I know that sometimes a successful divorce is better than a bad marriage. Frankly, I don't really appreciate people marginalizing divorcees, even if they are Republicans.

Posted by: aja
Date: March 19, 2007 07:54 PM

Divorce gets a bad reputation because it is so often the result of things that most people consider wrong: infidelity, domestic violence, substance abuse, and prison terms. In many cases divorce is the right thing to do given the circumstances of the marriage. In some, it is not. Regardless, when conservatives come down against divorce, they are using it as a blanket criticism of everything that leads to it, just as their opposition to gay marriage is really just a 'clean' way to express their extreme distaste for icky gay sex and effeminate behavior in males.

Posted by: Pan Pan
Date: March 19, 2007 08:05 PM

Klein made a mint writing Primary Colors for Republicans. He no longer has to think hard or work hard.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country
Date: March 19, 2007 08:19 PM

Well I for one hope that this little uproar is simply about hypocrisy and then we move on. I'm not saying that hypocrisy is not something important to note especially since the Republicans really have a knack of waving it around like it's red, white and blue. But I want some real debate before the next election.

It's just these types of, dare I say silly, side stories that keep people ranting one way or the other and what does not get discussed are any of the "issues". I mean can anyone remember the last time a politician even mumbled anything about education or the employment or healthcare? These things are desperately broken in this country! I know they only talk about them during election cycles and never do anything about them but it appears that we are in one now so where is the talk!? Is the level of disregard for this country so high that they don't even feel they need to pretend to care? What about us?

I'll tell you this, whatever party it is, if I hear more about immigration, terrorism or god than I do about the 3 issues I mentioned above they may as well white-out that name from my ballot... I've had enough of that BS already.

Posted by: mcboo
Date: March 19, 2007 08:19 PM

Thanks so much for exposing the BS.

Posted by: dustbunny44
Date: March 19, 2007 08:20 PM

Oh, I thought Conservative Family Values (tm) was the Blue Plate Special at K-Mart. Sorry, nvm.

Posted by:
Date: March 19, 2007 08:22 PM

Presumably Huckabee and Klein were referring to this "second commandment" from Matthew:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like unto it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Posted by: ed
Date: March 19, 2007 08:38 PM

Click your heels 3 times and say:

Republican Family Values Republican Family Values Republican Family Values

I know who my cousins are and I don't marry them, Hint Hint Rudy

Posted by: Lou M
Date: March 19, 2007 09:11 PM

Personally I like to think of Rudy as the guy who had his hand on the detonator of WTC building seven.

Posted by: Lasthorseman
Date: March 19, 2007 09:58 PM

And the reason you think Dodd has a more credible shot than Kucinich - considering their polls are about the same - is what, exactly?

Posted by: Jay Gold
Date: March 19, 2007 10:04 PM

This misses the point, particularly about Giuliani. It isn't the divorces that are an issue - even Reagan had a divorce behind him and so what? - but the adultery. Giuliani wasn't just a serial marrier but a serial cheater, as Gingrich recently admitted he fooled around on his wife. That behavior nsg, red or blue.

Posted by: Mark Flanagan
Date: March 19, 2007 10:36 PM

I get the issue of hypocricy, but do we want to play this losing game?

Posted by: Lilybelle
Date: March 19, 2007 11:04 PM

So four polygamists and a Mormon went to a bar...

Posted by: mac
Date: March 19, 2007 11:35 PM

Joe Klein has bought into the GOP talking points. What a pathetic propagandist he has become.

Posted by: Nan
Date: March 19, 2007 11:55 PM

I dislike Klein as much as the next non-self-loathing liberal, but in his defense, I think he was actually talking about Huckabee's concern for poverty, and Brownback's concern for prisoners' rights--and maybe Darfur. He's talking about Republican divorce, and then he's talking about Huckabee's rhetoric as a separate issue. Poorly phrased, but this is that one time in ten when he's not smearing Democrats.

Posted by: Greg
Date: March 20, 2007 12:06 AM

"So four polygamists and a Mormon went to a bar..."

and got their law degrees.

Posted by: Kenji
Date: March 20, 2007 12:09 AM

Republican candidates have a non-typical interpretation of "traditional family values" like "up" is a non-typical form of "down."

Mitt Romney has been married once, qualifying him best to represent "traditional family values" as they're usually understood, by most Christians and conservatives. Except he's not "traditional" by his own LDS Church, who sanctioned polygamy from the founding outset, with the approval of their Prophet, Joseph Smith.

The Prophet Joseph Smith did in fact blessed many polygamous marriages, while retelling of his visions which the LDS Church considers Holy Scripture.

So, these are certainly interesting times for "traditions."

Posted by: traditionally speaking
Date: March 20, 2007 12:26 AM

Rudy's only been divorced once. The first one was an annulment, LOL.

Posted by: Nancy Irving
Date: March 20, 2007 12:51 AM

Folks, please don't count the divorces. Count the mistresses.

Posted by: daniel
Date: March 20, 2007 09:13 AM

"Count the mistresses."

Any possible Hillary dalliances anybody know about? Prompting a reflection on persistent linguistic sexism: there is no good masculine equivalent for "mistress", especially in the political-scandal sense of the word.

Posted by: brooksfoe
Date: March 20, 2007 11:46 AM

Mostly the GOP is divorced from reality.

Posted by: mjinor
Date: March 20, 2007 12:59 PM

Greg,

There are exceptions, but the general rule is that "fewer" applies to things that can be counted and "less" applies to things that can be measured.

A simple way to remember this: You wouldn't say "There's fewer milk in the bottle". Correct would be "There's less milk in the bottle and fewer bottles in the fridge."

Or, in the case of the subject at hand, the general suggestion of the thread is that the Democratic frontrunners have had fewer divorces and exhibit less hypocrisy.

Posted by: wschmidt
Date: March 20, 2007 01:16 PM

Mitt Romney has been married once, qualifying him best to represent "traditional family values" as they're usually understood, by most Christians and conservatives. Except he's not "traditional" by his own LDS Church, who sanctioned polygamy from the founding outset, with the approval of their Prophet, Joseph Smith.

The LDS Church does not advocate polygamy and hasn't since the 19th Century. Mitt is indeed a "traditional" Mormon.

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