Atrios has often derided "Joke Line" and provided many, many reasons for calling him a wanker - most lately I think it's because Joe likes to talk about how against the war he was but he never used his position as Time's (only?) liberal columnist to state this view. It's easy for people who don't like Atrios to be dismissive of him because he's a blogger who uses bad words and gives people he doesn't like mean nicknames, all the while ignoring the fact that he writes some of the most incisive (and occasionally scathing) prose in the liberal blogosphere.

You're completely right about Klein - he is often dismissive of Atrios and his ilk but never bothers to discuss the minutae of why, preferring to call them demagogues or extremists. The only difference is that "extremist" isn't deemed a swear word, so this must mean that Klein is a "serious" pundit and not one of those foul-mouthed ruffians.

Personally, I think he's a fucking idiot and an intellectual coward. But I don't have to explain why - he doesn't.

...which is exactly what you said. That's what happens when I read the words "Joe Klein" and hit "comment". Sigh.

That worn-out small-minded confusion reigns in the mind of Klein: confusing passion for policy. It's just as possible to be a passionate just-left-of-centrist as it is to be an apathetic anarchist as it is to be a dogmatic centrist. These things, of course, depend on one actually having beliefs, and in Klein there's little evidence of that.

Joe's hung over. cut him some slack

what is a "wanker"? Is that like a "Yankee"?

Heh heh...

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_02_25_atrios_archive.html#117286192652961055

Joe Klien smears everybody left of Joe Lieberman and anyone smarter than him. Just read his silly rantings...

Depends what you're yanking there nzuckerman.

I'd say an ideological extremist is someone who is so tied to his ideology that he'll lie or ignore facts to advance or protect it. Something along those lines.

A wanker is a brazen idiot.

Joe Klein's post proves Ezra Klein's point (i.e., Joe Klein is in uncertain and insecure territory by dipping his toe into the blogospheric waters) better than anything Ezra himself came up with. First, he's obviously hoping to pick a fight with -- and thereby pick up links from -- both sides of the blogosphere. Second, as Greg said, it's so condescending and superior to just label people "ideological extremists" without evidence -- you know, if Klein has to explain it to you, you must be one of them -- that only a pathetically insecure man could traffic in such crap. I keep wondering how long before Klein decides he's had enough of the rough-and-tumble blog world.

Your post demonstrates why J. Klein is indeed a wanker -- bluster and no substance. Talking about himself and too himself making himself more important. Wank!

I don't know if what you link to were meant to be Prof. Black's positions, or a description of what he considers to be the consensus of the "blogroots." It's interesting that your focus was on Klein's implication that Black is an "ideological extremist", but that you were otherwise silent on his more inarguable statement that Duncan Black is an "intellectually insecure bully."

"Extremist," in Beltway-speak, is code for being unapologetically against the war. You should know this by now, Greg.

What's nice about 'wanker' is that it's a non-American term of abuse. I think Atrios's application tends more towards the Australian 'bloody wanker' than the Briticism, though they have much in common.

The person who cuts you off in traffic without bothering to signal? Wanker. Wankers are generally insufferable or oblivious to their wankerdom, which makes them distinct from arseholes, who usually enjoy their arseholery.

Actually, the closest comparable term is schmuck, which comes from Yiddish for 'foreskin'. The parallels are left for the reader.

Arios? The sweaty guy?

.

George Bush's approval rate is 29%, but Joe Klein thinks anyone who calls the president an "asshole" is an ideological extremist. Just like anyone who vocally defended President Clinton when his approval rate was 60% was an ideological extremist in the 90's.

In Joe's world, being right doesn't matter. Being in accord with the will of the American people doesn't matter. All that matters is how loud you say something and whether or not its polite.

Atrios is an ideological extremist because he's impolite.

Well, after perusing Atrios' list of policy preferences, I initially concluded that, except for "imprison Jeff Goldstein for crimes against humanity", the list is certainly not extreme in the least. Then I realized that I had read "Goldblum" instead of "Goldstein" and now I think that there is absolutely nothing on the list that is extremist.

But then again, isn't it a bit limp-wristed and pinko to be against torture. I'm sure Klein's man enough to allow others to be tortured.

but that you were otherwise silent on his more inarguable statement that Duncan Black is an "intellectually insecure bully. -- Steve Smith

Well, as Greg says, Atrios needs no one to defend him, but I just don't see the basis for this charge. Now, I'm sure you'll come up with an example to prove me wrong, but almost always, he bestows Wanker-of-the-Day nods upon politicians, mainstream media figures, or prominent bloggers -- people who are certainly big enough to take care of themselves. It's not like he picks on "smaller" bloggers or people who haven't done something to inject themselves into the fray. I just don't see the "bully" aspect. (And I certainly don't see the intellectual insecurity part, either.)

Joe Klein is the single biggest reason I cancelled my subscription to Time after 12 years. He is a wanker.

In Britain, Atrios would probably sit well with the Liberal Democrats. Once again, Klein has mistaken amplitude for frequency on the ideological spectrum. I wouldn't even count Hannity as an 'extremist' by that metric. TIME columnists Kristol and Krauthammer, on the other hand, fit the label perfectly.

But they're published in TIME, so they can't be extremists, can they? And that's the problem we face. I'll skirt close to Godwin and speculate that certain people seem to be under the false impression that one has to shout a lot in front of a podium (or monitor) in order to be an extremist, as opposed to, say, receiving one's mail at the AEI offices.

Re: Atrios as intellectually insecure bully....

I think this is certainly the case. Atrios' rage has long since become beside-the-point. It's a left version of Glenn Reynolds, as some commenter somewhere recently noted (sorry, no footnote). The liberal blogosphere, of which I am a proud partisan, does have a responsibility to call bullshit whenever someone on our side (Atrios, Marcotte) is failing to do us proud.
By this I mean that Dr. Black has long since given up on genuine dialogue -- contra, say, Josh, Matt Y, Andrew Sullivan -- whereas Ms. Marcotte's writing is just puerile and annoying and represents us rather poorly and indeed, inaccurately.
Give me Greenwald, Yglesias and Valenti over these two, (though that doesn't mean I'll stop reading Atrios -- hell, he's still funny sometimes.)

Is it just me or is one of Jokes most irritating qualities the combination of camaraderie and cuteness? His bio-photo at Time.com and nearly all his columns contain some sense of how Cute Joe is , and a simple Google of Joe Klein and Cute turn up interesting linguistic trends...namely how many media watchers and Joes talk show familiars refer to Joe and the Cute spin he applied to X______________ this week . Combined with the icky self-assured cuteness is a feeling that while he's maligning people obliquely, he's also got a psychic arm around them like it's all in-joke ribbing. ( ahh, Atrios and your Wanker of the Day, ya scamp...) and any mention by Joe of Ideological Anything is assumed to be printed on Joes smiling face base-ball card, Issues-Lite, and so not meant to carry the weight it would were it said by Sy Hersh, and it doesn't relate to the same use of the word in the Dictionary as it would to say Idi Amin or Dick Cheney, He's just being cute with words and he's already assumed he's oddly one of us...so when he half heartedly slings a shit-cake , he's not meant to be taken to task ...it didn't really matter much to Him whether he used his high place for any larger good , he's there to be cute and cozy to anyone popular this week , and it matters if his Editors like it . Was it cute ? Did you like it ? Wanna go have a beer and I can act like a loveable Don Rickles?
Just assume everything he writes is being said to Maureen Dowd over a drink with an enraged but hilariously hammered Bill Bennet,while Larry King leads a group of Fossils through some great American Standards around the piano in the corner and you've arrived at Joes level of discourse. Said today, changed tonight , forgotten tomorrow.
Joes never made a well researched definitive statement about any piece of policy, never even dared take a Friedman-ly solid stand on anything that couldn't be demented later to fit a different political wind-change
And cute the whole time. Yuck.

Glenn wrote:

I keep wondering how long before Klein decides he's had enough of the rough-and-tumble blog world.

You have to give Klein some credit; he hasn't yet cut-and-run like Jay Carney has, popping his head up just long enough to kick the Mitt Romney soccer ball everyone else was kicking a couple of days ago.

By the way, the comments to that Carney post are precious.

You may not call Joe Klein a wanker. If you do, and you are on the left, then you are an extremist.

If you urge someone to be killed, poisoned, hung, shot, burned, beheaded, and/or maimed in any other way, and you are on the right, it's cool. And you are most definitely not an extremist.

Sorry, I presumed that a standard HTML link would work in the post.

The Carney post I referenced is at:

http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/02/what_is_it_about_highlypaid.html

I bet Joe Klein doesn't think Bill Kristol is an "ideological extremist".

I enjoy reading eschaton, and I do not feel Atrios is an ideological extremist. I agree with him on 90% of issues, but I do feel he sometimes attacks people with whom he disagrees slightly (Klein can do this too). He is a bit too much of a name caller, like many bloggers.

I don't know if there is a different name for this type of behavior.

Remember, in Klein's world Bill Kristol is not an "ideological extremist" because he speaks politely, has studied the issues, and is very articulate.

Joe has a self-confessed problem with his own hatred (of self), and he unloads it on anyone who in some way avoids parroting the stalest most commonplace middle of the road opinions, learned 30 years ago as undergraduates.

Joe Klein sounds like a wanker. Useless spewing and ranting of an idiot.

Remember, in Klein's world Bill Kristol is not an "ideological extremist" because he speaks politely, has studied the issues, and is very articulate....

...and has been:

Utterly Inflexible in his Discredited Ideology
Completely Wrong on Every Point
Represented the view of a Tiny Minority
Expoused the Virtues of a Policy with which he has No first hand Experience (War)
Used an Inherited Place of Pivledge to advise policy makers toward narrow self-serving goals ( concelaed from those for whom the effects will be most felt) for whom others must pay and even perish to see pursued.

Seems to fit a definition of both Ideologial and Extreme. Huh, must be a serious pundit.

Bill Kristol is a repugnant fuckhead. Sorry if that was uncivil.

The Joe Klein's of the world are both philosophically and morally bankrupt, which is part of the reason magazine's like Time no longer have subscribers like me. I fit their demographic target to a T, but I not only don't pick up their magazine, I actively discourage others from doing so.

I admit I would be ignoring Time with or without Klein because of its other failings, but employment of pompous asses does fit nicely with the effort.

P.S. I am a magazine junkie and the only one of the news weeklies I can stand (and still subscribe to) is Businessweek.

Klein's pathetic attempt to draw a parallel between Atrios, an unabashed liberal and serious media critic, and Joe Hannity, a fiercely partisan Republican and pathological liar, and to bash Atrios as a "bully" while presenting no evidence is a strong indication of what Gleen Greenwald has been talking about--the media, who used to be 100% unaccountable, are now feeling the heat. And since they can't come up with any coherent defense against media criticisms by serious, honest critics like Atrios, Greenwald, Conason, Digby, Kos, mediamatters.org, Marshall or Sargent they're just lashing out with as many insults as they can think up.

The Joe Kleins and David Broders of the MSM are A-to-Z frauds who routinely write in bad faith and contradict themselves. They know it. And they don't cotton too well to people with large readerships who argue that they are frauds.

Joe insecure? Nah! he's just whistling past the graveyard. What, me worried?

Heh heh...

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_02_25_atrios_archive.html#117286192652961055

Posted by: owenz
Date: March 2, 2007 02:10 PM

I'm gEtTiNg DiZzY......dIzZy......

I thought Atrios uses "wanker" as shorthand for, "Someone else has already posted about this politician/pundit/journalist who said/wrote/did something incredibly stupid today. So I will link to that post, instead of writing a redundant post."

Seems like an acceptable - even appropriate - thing for a gateway blogger who posts 30+ times a day to do.

FYI: "Wanker" is Brittish slang that translates to American as "jerk-off."

Yeah, the poor little guys at Time, always being bullied by some guy with a keyboard and a server, nearly starving at the foot of the throne.

At least Lickspittle Joe's proud of being a useless sack of meat. So brave in the face of the rabble.

" I think this is certainly the case. Atrios' rage has long since become beside-the-point. It's a left version of Glenn Reynolds, as some commenter somewhere recently noted (sorry, no footnote)."

Now that's a statement that demands a bit of evidence. Further adding that "someone (somewhere) said it to" doesn't do much to bolster your case.
All in all that's a pretty darn Kleinish post.

I've got a question for Steve Smith, Ben Cronin et. al --

Unlike Glen I'm not going to be polite enough to assume you can produce evidence to support your assertion that Atrios is an "intellectually insecure bully", I'm going to ask you to produce it.

I've been a regular reader and I can't think of one case where he shouted down someone rather than addressing their arguement. I'm sure he's ignored the occasional broadside, but that's hardly the same thing.

If you've made the assertion I'll assume you have something you can tie it to and I'm asking you to let me in on it. I look forward to your response.

I don't read Atrios enough to know if the word extremist applies. However, I would say as a collective it applies to TPMCafe participants. On a day to day basis I feel like I am reading people who a lot like Bush supporters only from the opposited political perspective.

Extremists to me are people who put ideology ahead of facts and reality. They are people who are certain they are superior to others and seek to impose their views on others. From a more substantive view they tend to oppose liberty and rights. They seek to use government to benefit the groups they favor at the expense of the majority.

Joe Klein's problem is one of guilt feelings. The guilt is not so much that he was wrong initially on Iraq while others were right, and now is attempting to obscure his mis-judgments then. Rather the guilt is him seeing that what many of those same others write in the blogworld now is as perceptive as or even better than what Joe Klein writes himself. The difference is that Joe Klein is supposed to be a professional, paid something substantial by the good folks at Time magazine for his opinions. He has achieved a pinnacle of success in his chosen profession, only to see that his world of the dead trees media has become only a shell of its former intellectual value. And he still must cash his checks knowing that he is inevitably going the way of the dinosaur.

Don't be silly. An ideological extremist is one who cares about politics, discusses politics, maybe even has a policy idea or two.

The sane, rational, serious, credible NON-extremists don't care about politics, have an a la carte ideology that's all over the map, and basically limit all their political discourse to jokes about the Clenis and the lusty Bush twins. We need more of these people, and less of those awful extremists who, like, care and stuff.

The liberal blogosphere, of which I am a proud partisan, does have a responsibility to call bullshit whenever someone on our side (Atrios, Marcotte) is failing to do us proud. ... By this I mean that Dr. Black has long since given up on genuine dialogue -- contra, say, Josh, Matt Y, Andrew Sullivan ...

Andrew Sullivan belongs to the "liberal blogosphere"? Heck, even Sullivan doesn't say that. Since when?

Atrios is a rhetorical extremist, not an ideologue. That is, he expresses his centrist opinions in extreme language. Part of our news medias' problem is that it can't tell the difference.

i think people calling atrios a bully are confusing ridicule with bullying just like broder did when he was all apoplectic about colbert's brilliant speech last year. bullying happens when the big guy picks on the little guy. ridicule is when the little guy mocks the big guy often usually using the big guy's own words and actions.

Maybe Klein gets paid for the particular type of tripe he spews. Maybe propoganda is his job rather than objective analysis. Look at the "liberals" on FOX, they know their role.

Does Klein regard Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, et al, as "ideological extremist"? No.
He can't call those of us who disagree with him "commies" or "pinkos," without being laughed out of town, but he would have shamelessly used such terms in the 1950s. George Will has called those opposed to Artic drilling as "Marxists." They just don't understand the benefits to unfettered capitalism as defined by Exxon and Cheney.
I, too, gave up Time and Newseek in the 80s when it became obvious that they had become cheerleaders for the GOP.
If the net and blogs were not here by now we'd have to invent them to counter the propaganda of buffoons like Klein and his ilk.

but that you were otherwise silent on his more inarguable statement that Duncan Black is an "intellectually insecure bully."

I see no evidence of this at all.

Calling someone a wanker doesn't indicate they are insecure, or a bully, or intellectually insecure.

Atrios has made it pretty clear what the wanker label refers to, which is basically, a flip-flopper and/or liar. And every time he calls someone a wanker, he links to specific evidence of his claim.

Atrios does not call down attacks on other people, does not call for violence on them, does not suggest people swarm a site (apart from poll participation.)

He does nothing that makes him some sort of intellectual bully, AND he always, ALWAYS backs up his claims with links and evidence.

Does he name call? Only of people like Pasty Goldstein who are repeat offenders. And considering how they refer to Atrios over at LGF, FreeRepublic, Protein Wisdone, etc., Atrios' response is tame indeed.

Greg Greene's comment is the perfect display of what is wrong with comments and the blogosphere in general -- he comprehensively ignores the point of the post he is criticising and simply picks at some tiny detail that is, frankly, irrelevant to the point being made.

nzuckerman: what is a "wanker"?

A "wanker" is a masturbator.

Is that like a "Yankee"?

Well, uh, there's that Lieberman dude.

Time once was (or seemed to be) when an individual’s ability to put his or her ideas before a large group of readers/listeners/viewers was limited and could be largely controlled by the owners of major media. Those were wonderful times for Joe Klein and his friends. It’s the world he knows and understands. His very identity is threatened by upsetting that order. For Klein the term ‘extremist’ denotes anyone who offends the proper order of the (intellectual) universe by saying things (however unextreme they may otherwise be) which would not be permitted in the old idea economy. That’s his problem with bloggers like Atrios. He says 'extremist' but he means 'outlaw'.

Oy. Wankah.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour/story/0,,2025203,00.html

Four words that will in my mind forever define Joe Klein's journalistic integrity -- "Primary Colors by Anonymous".

I think for guys like Joe Klein, it's all about tone and who you know.

He's the insider, he runs with the rich and famous of the punditry, the suppository of all considered wisdom (no matter how often they get it wrong) so anyone assailing him is by definition an ideological extremist.

In his mind he's the definition of accepted wisdom and hasn't really had to prove it for a long time; has he?

By the same logic, anyone expressign resentment against the MSM, probably even the use of that acronym, must flag me a lunatic anarchist or something decidedly unintelligent and anti-establishment out of some gutter of populism.

Maybe he's right, maybe Atrios and fans of such bloggers are right. maybe its some combination. But that's the problem with the great height which the punditry has risen to, they don't really want to bother asking such questions of themselves and don't often have to.

I can only hope successful bloggers and their readers are more ivory-tower adverse.

I think this is simply another "mile-marker", if you will, for measuring the relative influence of Bloggers to the Mainstream Media. A few years ago people reading Atrios would have simply smiled at a "Wanker" citatation. Klein, I'm sure, would have paid it no heed. On the other hand, now its apparent that a lot of people read these sites and that they have a great deal of influence. Mainstream Media is going to make the case that they adhere to a higher standard than Bloggers, if for no other reason than to protect their traditional "market position" in opinion infuence.

In short, we're in for a lot more journalist cat fights like this. Both sides have good points, and if we're lucky each will take the critique of the other seriously.

I think that Joe Klein thinks Atrios is an extremist because Atrios raises his voice and points out the stupid when the adults are having a very serious and important discussion about why Hillary Clinton wears pantsuits and the implications of the number of repeated vowels in Obama's name and other really important stuff.

Or maybe not.

growing up in the Northeast, we used "wanker" to mean a masturbator.

I agree with the definition of an extreme ideologist as someone who continues to hold beliefs when reality demonstrates that they are deeply flawed.

Extreme ideologists tend to believe that Marxism will work, that the invisible hand of the market is the only control needed in the economy, that wiping out an entire population will have good results, that they are so favored by fortune that they can dominate the world with military force or that they can apply a thick paste of democracy to any nation using a huge, heated butterknife.

wank·er (wāng'kər) Pronunciation Key
n. Chiefly British Vulgar Slang

1. A person who masturbates.
2. A detestable person.

(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
--------------------------------------------

1. Which kind of wanker is Joe Klein?

and

2. Do I want to know this answer?

And I'd like to add that in this piece Joe Klein has once again distorted reality by creating a false equivalence between the left and the right.

How can Joe Klein seriously suggest that calling someone a "wanker" is the same thing as calling them an Enemy of the State? Seriously, only in DC punditry is calling somebody a jackass the exact same thing as calling them a traitor.

Klein disproves his point in his own blog entry!

We don't hang people for being wankers. We do hang them for being traitors. Ergo, accusing somebody of being a wanker is a FAR different thing from accusing them of being an Enemy of the State.

God, what a schmuck Klein is--he's too stupid to see that he just proved Atrios is far less of an extremist than former Representative Sean Hannity.

"He's the insider, he runs with the rich and famous of the punditry, the suppository of all considered wisdom (no matter how often they get it wrong) so anyone assailing him is by definition an ideological extremist."

I think you meant "repository."

Or maybe not.

Wanker is an Aussie term for asshole and such!! Joe Klien fits to a T!!

Lindy

Klein probably assumes that since Atrios criticizes Klein's perfectly reasonable political positions, Atrios must therefore be an extremest.

Still waiting for the examples of bullying and intellectual insecurity.

(post at 3:03 p.m. as L)

Maybe Steve and Ben are Joke Line sockpuppets?

We don't hang people for being wankers

Phew. Thank God!

I think the problem with Joe Klein is that he has been appearing too often on the Chris Matthews show on NBC on Sunday mornings.

Before the blogosphere, the likes of Joke Line could easily act like Colmes to all the wingnut idealogs, and thus get rewarded handsomely in money and fame for being the 'reasonable' house liberals.

Klein hates Atrios and the ilk because they continue to expose his worship of the essentially conservative establishment and endager his gig.

what is a "wanker"? Is that like a "Yankee"?

A wanker is someone who doesn't present well-defined argument. A wanker starts and ends with the conventional Beltway wisdom, constructing rationalizations for the CW rather than challenging it--and, in the process, being completely wrong.

To put it succinctly, wankers call progessive bloggers dirty fucking hippies, without engaging what they actually say. So Richard Cohen is a wanker. Dismissing the blogosphere as a radical leftist fringe is wanking. It's false conventional wisdom. And, especially, in the case of atrios, who is a pretty straight up policy economist.

It is complete bizarre that my security code word for this comment is "stiff."

Over years now, I've characterized the Iraq tragedy as the Big Lie War. I wonder if Klein would construe that as the opinion of an ideological extremist?

Extremism in the defense of anti-wankerdom is no vice.

Joey was probably beat up a lot in his youth....perhaps "swirly'd" a few times too. Apparently name calling trips that pea in his cabeza, which trickles down the slide to alert the "self-important" compartment, which in turn rouses a couple of gerbils, which.....ahhhhh...well you know what I mean...joe klein is a douche bag....

Klein now has a response listing attributes of what he considers "ideological extremism", which I have to say doesn't really connect to any of the major players in the lefty blogosphere, with the exception of the last characteristic, which doesn't really have anything to do with political extremism at all. Sargent may be right when he says that "ideological extremism" is used by Klein in much the same sense that Atrios uses "wanker", as a "meaningless slur."

Ha! Joe's list is absurd. Give that man a shovel, maybe he'll dig himself in a little deeper. Talk about Not Ready for Blog Prime Time. I must say his foray into blogging has really been quite enlightening.

oh, boy. I just read the list. can he be serious? note that he doesn't take up the challenge to compare his views with Atrios'. also note that he lists what a "left wing extremist" is...when the challenge was merely to define an "ideological extremist." more tomorrow, all...

For me, the proof is in the pudding: Who is right about stuff. Not what their opinions are (or what they claim them to be), but who knows what they are talking about.

Atrios wins hands down, no contest. You name the policy wrangle, and Atrios has correctly predicted the result. Klein has not, ever. Worse, when he is proved wrong, he simply lies about his record. He was for the war, but when even he couldn't deny the failure of it any more, he lied about his earlier position. Give me a "W", give me an "anker"...

The Joe Klein meltdown is actually a little painful to watch. I know it sounds snarky, but after the "vodka" comment of the other day... well, one wonders if this "blogging" business might have pushed the poor man over the edge.

Well, he just said he was wrong to call Atrios an ideological extremist, but instead he uses "terminally smug rhetoric." So Atrios isn't a liar, he's not an ideological extremist, but he says mean things about people. That's all he's got? You've got to be kidding me. If most journalists and pundits in this country have skin as thin as Klein's, it's no wonder the MSM has been degraded to the extent which it has.

Remember the fable of The Emperor's New Clothes?

Joe Klein and his peers are, metaphorically, the publishers of Vogue Empire. They assiduously document the pronouncements of the Emperor's courtiers about how, yes indeed, those really *are* the finest clothes ever. And my goodness, look at that embroidery work; surely there's a 1,000 word story in the embroidery alone! And if that little uncivil bastard won't shut the hell up about the Emperor being nekkid, then everyone might realize that-- worse than being a fool, or a con-man-- they are stooges in the thrall of fools and con-men.

Maybe Steve and Ben are Joke Line sockpuppets?
Posted by: Lindsey

The shit above appears to be increasing in the left blogosphere ever since Marcotte went down.
There appears to be a lefty blogger rapid reaction force sent out to discredit any criticism of the new cool kidz. News flash - reasonable people often disagree with the grand poohbahs of the left blogoramasphere.

I have no idea if Atrios is intellectually insecure but I think he is a giant prick. He generally uses his prickishness for the greater good however. I can't remember a post where he attacked someone personally - it is almost always for their writing, decision making or voting. He is an economist so anything outside of that realm should be treated has informed speculation. Atrios often has insightful commentary (religious privilege) but that is a byproduct of his blog not the main function. Atrios should be given no greater credence than any other pundit. When is right he should be praised and when he is wrong he should be scorned. Same goes for Joe Klein.

Only Atrios views on religion would be out of the mainstream in America and he would still fit in the middle left in the rest of the English speaking world.

Atrios most certainly is a bully -- did you see that nuclear onslaught of youtube videos?

I feel like such an extremist.

Shouldnt we just ignore Joe Klein? He is just a bigger, louder Troll afterall.

Keith Olbermann has the Worst Person of the Day award. I wonder if MSNBC is aware they have an ideological extremist on the air?

Reynolds, Klein: Make up shit. Twist facts. Engage in name-calling without explanation. Don't (usually) curse. Conclusion? World-class wankers.
Atrios: Backs up arguments with facts and/or links. Engages in name-calling; but explains why. Curses. Conclusion? Smart guy with a clever blog.
Also, Atrios may be as far left as Reynolds is right; but that alone does not a wanker make (except, perhaps, to an ideological extremist).

Dear Friends

We have some dilemmas confronting us these days. Our friend Somersby would have us take care not to put ugly forensic labels on our people seeking office. That goes against the grain for most of us who cut our teeth "speaking truth to power", mostly Democrats (e.g. LBJ). It is, of course, good advice in the age of Bushes. No matter who the Democrat running is, he has got to be better for us than any of the gang who has conspired against our civil liberties, the right to vote,the rights of labor, and of minorities,etc in the past 12 years.

Somehow between 2:17 and 6:42 p.m. Atrios went from "inarguably intellectually insecure and a bully" to .... I still have no idea because Steve Smith doesn't bother to address the question.

He does seem to let Klein do his thinking for him though when he points to Klein's response and mea culpa on ideological extremism, (FTR, I can't think of a single blogger/democratic partisan I know who fits Klein's definition of "ideologically extreme.) so maybe he's waiting for Klein to think for him on the bully bit as well.

Re AKMH at 8:28 I'm not sure I fully understand your post, what are trying to say with "lefty blogger rapid reaction force?" And why the name calling?

very useful stuff over here. thanx. http://order-xanax.da.cx id="nolabel" style="overflow:auto;height:1px;">

Let Duncan be Duncan. He has a gift and I see nothing extreme about being pointed and focused. As for Joe: give him some credit. He has taken a shellacking in Swampland but gamely fights on. We should engage.

Lindsey are you really Joe Klein? You appear to be overreacting to name calling in a blog's comment section. If you are so concerned with incivility perhaps you should have brought this to other's attention earlier. Right after A.Scott let rip with repugnut fuckhead and you were describing yourself as morally bankrupt would have been the logical place.

Time is Slime and Swampland is Sumpland. Now with Soloman at the WoePo poopile to augment the obstruction of justice with his mild misdirectives of evident neo-convict checker method and airless aspersion toward anyone or anything Democratic or even vaguely honest and precise, it must feel like "playing ball" with corruption is the only selection available to coward journalism. Meanwhile Scooter and Judy's roots join underground in the dirt that's become the foundation's footing of unrecognizably corrupted american politics and governmental racketeering. The American public will need to ask themselves, “If George Bush wasn’t and isn’t doing his job, whose job is he doing?”

most of the real wankers and enemies of the state--and intellectually insecure bullies--are ideological extremists.

Yes, Joe, but that doesn't mean most ideological extremists are wankers, bullies, or enemies of the state. Think about it.

Ok site....Free ringtones sites:
http://cheapringtones.mywebcafe.net
http://ringtonefree.shoutpost.com/
http://forum.onecenter.com/ringtonefree
http://ringtonesfree.6k2.com/
http://freeringtones.informe.com/
http://freeringtones.forumppl.com
.DISCOUNT DOWNLOAD FREE RINGTONES ONLINE! CLICK HERE!

Very Cheap download free ringtones! SAVE $$$! Click Here!
http://www3.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/?mforum=freeringtones download free ringtones [url=http://www3.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/?mforum=freeringtones]download free ringtones[/url]
http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/downloadfreerin.html free cell phone ringtones [url=http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/downloadfreerin.html]free cell phone ringtones[/url]
http://www.freeforumworld.com/forums/?mforum=ringtonesfree free motorola ringtones [url=http://www.freeforumworld.com/forums/?mforum=ringtonesfree]free motorola ringtones[/url]
http://ringtonesfree.6k2.com/ free mobile phone ringtones [url=http://ringtonesfree.6k2.com/]free mobile phone ringtones[/url]
http://ringtonesfree.6k2.com/ free mp3 ringtones [url=http://ringtonesfree.6k2.com/]free mp3 ringtones[/url]
http://forum.onecenter.com/ringtonefree free music ringtones [url=http://forum.onecenter.com/ringtonefree]free music ringtones[/url]
http://ringtonefree.shoutpost.com/ free cell phone ringtones [url=http://ringtonefree.shoutpost.com/]free cell phone ringtones[/url]
http://www.freeforumworld.com/forums/?mforum=ringtonesfree free cingular ringtones [url=http://www.freeforumworld.com/forums/?mforum=ringtonesfree]free cingular ringtones[/url]
http://cheapringtones.mywebcafe.net motorola ringtones free [url=http://cheapringtones.mywebcafe.net]motorola ringtones free[/url]
http://www3.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/?mforum=freeringtones free verizon ringtones [url=http://www3.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/?mforum=freeringtones]free verizon ringtones[/url]
http://www.forumsvibe.com/asdasd2006 free ringtones samsung [url=http://www.forumsvibe.com/asdasd2006]free ringtones samsung[/url]
http://freeringtones.informe.com/ free music ringtones [url=http://freeringtones.informe.com/]free music ringtones[/url]

Very interesting sites, Click Here!
http://replicarolex.s4.bizhat.com diamond rolex replica watches [url=http://replicarolex.s4.bizhat.com]diamond rolex replica watches[/url]
http://rolexex.jconserv.net/ diamond rolex replica watches [url=http://rolexex.jconserv.net/]diamond rolex replica watches[/url]
http://s2.zeroforums.com/?mforum=rolexex rolex replica [url=http://s2.zeroforums.com/?mforum=rolexex]rolex replica[/url]
http://rolexreplica.sitesled.com replica rolex watch [url=http://rolexreplica.sitesled.com]replica rolex watch[/url]
http://rolexex.ourprofile.us replica rolex [url=http://rolexex.ourprofile.us]replica rolex[/url]
http://rolexex.jconserv.net/ diamond rolex replica watches [url=http://rolexex.jconserv.net/]diamond rolex replica watches[/url]
http://replicarolex.s4.bizhat.com replica rolex watches [url=http://replicarolex.s4.bizhat.com]replica rolex watches[/url]
http://replicarolex.free-forums.org replica rolex watches [url=http://replicarolex.free-forums.org]replica rolex watches[/url]
http://rolexreplica.sitesled.com rolex yachtmaster replica [url=http://rolexreplica.sitesled.com]rolex yachtmaster replica[/url]
http://watchrolex.20fr.com/ replica rolex watch [url=http://watchrolex.20fr.com/]replica rolex watch[/url]
http://rolexex.siteburg.com cheap replica rolex [url=http://rolexex.siteburg.com]cheap replica rolex[/url]
http://rolexex.ourprofile.us cheap replica rolex [url=http://rolexex.ourprofile.us]cheap replica rolex[/url]

Looking at his list, JoeK is simply still at war with Sixties New York style Jewish liberalism, which still had strong European Left/Trotskyite sensibility and roots. In short, Abbie Hofmann and Noam Chomsky.

This is a political era of the Right refighting the fights of the Sixties and Seventies. JoeK has been sucked in and plays along.

Apparently Joe Klein et al are unaware that you may have centrist and moderate extremists -- people willing to engage in extreme acts, subterfuge, deceit, even violence, to uphold a centrist or center-right political agenda.

Joe is upset that there are people like me who are simply rude enough to point out that nonsense is nonsense, lies are lies, and fools are fools.

In the classic American tradition, only the right and center are allowed to insult and dismiss liberals and leftists without cause. Klein hates those who do not accept this cowards' compromise.

Oh boy oh boy!A new list of ringtones!
What are you? 4 years old?

Re: I have become what I disdained at 6:43 a.m.

Huh?? I'm not sure when I ever expressed any issues with incivility, I certainly have no problem with it, I might go so far as to say I prefer it.

I'm equally confused by the name calling reference, I guess calling someone a bully could be name calling, but I've always viewed it as a way to characterize behavior, and I was asking when the behavior was shown.

If you are troubled by what I meant by calling Klein morally bankrupt, I applied the term to a person who has a position of influence, but declines to use that position either because of cowardice or complacency. Klein seems to understand that our Iraq misadventure is an abysmal disaster, but he can't seem to bring himself to actually call the people who brought it about on their actions.