joehigashi's Blog | Why I support Obama and not Hillary (Clintonistas, let's have a civil discourse) »
Clintonistas and Rev. Wright (don't get looney)
Okay, so for all you bewildered neocons and Hillary supporters who portentously harp on the implications of Obama's association with Reverend Wright, I have to ask: what exactly are you so afraid of? I want specifics here, guys. I know, some of you are just using Wright's outbursts as a new and convenient justification for why Hillary should get the nomination. It's kind of flimsy, but whatever, nothing new in the perennial wishful thinking of ye olde Clintonistas. I suppose this comment is directed more at those people who keep forecasting that Wright's speeches are some ominous indication of how Obama will run the country as president. I'm just wondering if you'd care to elaborate on these fears? Because asking "Just WHO is Barack Obama???" is getting awfully inane, despite all the new anti-Obama scuzz Sean Hannity manages to dredge up. Personally, I think you have a better chance in whining about Rezko and Obama's ability to bring about change than your new approach of suggesting that he is somehow deceiving the American public, eagerly waiting to plunge the country someplace very big, very bad, and very black. I mean, I don't really know what you're getting at when you talk about how you can't support him because he's known this pastor for twenty years...is it that you think this association has poisoned Obama's character? That he's just talking a nice game of post-partisan unity and change, but the moment he's sworn into office he's going to put white America in one giant labor camp, appoint Louis Farrakhan as his veep, declare himself ruler for life and beyond, bomb Israel, and sell our children to Iran to build nuclear weapons? That he's really a glib hatemonger? It sounds like you're edging towards that wonderful new e-mail smear that Obama is the antichrist. It's sad, because I'd like to think you'd be able to keep your rancor on the level, instead of following Hillary off the edge of sanity like a herd of buffalo off a cliff.
Look, I love my father. He's a kind, insightful, and generous man. But he grew up in a blue-collar area of Long Island, his father was a railroad worker, and sometimes his opinions on groups like homosexuals and hispanics are pretty offensive (he is, by the way, an Obama supporter). Sometimes the things he says really makes my skin crawl, but nevertheless, I understand that he grew up in a different time, with different social and cultural norms and influences. In the end he's my father, and I've always been smart enough to discern the wisdom from the sixty-year old prejudices. It's just an inevitability (or perhaps tendency) of the older generation, I'd say. My father remains my mentor and continues to offered me priceless advice, but that hardly means I've ever agreed with him on any of his close-minded opinions. Ever. We've gotten into plenty heated arguments about it, but in the end what's meaningful about our relationship isn't based on an ignorant, bygone cultural understanding from the 1950s. So Lord knows, I am not going to hold Obama accountable for the sins of the father--especially seeing as how Jeremiah Wright, being a crusader in the Civil Rights campaign, must have infinitely more reasons to be angry than my old man.
The HuffPo article titled 'Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?' got it right (no link, because I'm lazy). You twits need to stop jerking off your visceral fears and examine what it is you're actually so afraid of. One user wrote something on Huffington along the lines of, "Try to understand where this racist is coming from? I don't want to understand!" Well, I suppose some people have already learned all they'll ever need to know about black people from rap music and basketball, so there's no need to look any further into the history an feelings of some of those 1960s Civil Rights fighters who had hot coffee poured on their heads or dogs set on them. Let's disregard the fact that racism doesn't end just when you get rid of colored water fountains, and systematic oppression and discrimination is still alive and well in this country today, and might cause a bubbling reserve of slightly irrational but righteous indignation among oppressed minorities. Let's not even give them the benefit of the doubt. No, let's just take this outburst as a militant threat against white security and cry foul because Geraldine Ferraro didn't get so much understanding. Rev. Wright doesn't speak for Obama, and I don't see how on earth Obama could ever be a hatemonger...unless I'm to believe these oh-so-rich allegations that he's a *secret* hatemonger with a *secret* agenda for America that he'll *secretly* pass despite our time-honored (well, maybe less recently) of checks and balances.
In sum, Hillary people, please stick to dismissing his change. Then you can be snide and all knowing and we can start touting the math and call you delusional and we can all go back to agreeing to disagree. But I'm begging you: do not go down this looney road. I mean, what's next? He's going to paint the White House black? Please.
As for all of those trolls who have started to jabber about how this outburst has sounded the death knell for Obama, I would like to remind you PA is six weeks away. Media coverage is a capricious mistress...or maybe an a child with ADHD...anyway. NAFTAgate was what? Two weeks ago? And who even considers that relevant at this point? If this Wright codswallop is as intense and unrelenting in six weeks as it is now, then maybe you little wonky Nostradamuses can start with the predictions. But 48 hours is a little too soon to start consulting your crystal ball.
So uh, suck it.
Peas
Look, I love my father. He's a kind, insightful, and generous man. But he grew up in a blue-collar area of Long Island, his father was a railroad worker, and sometimes his opinions on groups like homosexuals and hispanics are pretty offensive (he is, by the way, an Obama supporter). Sometimes the things he says really makes my skin crawl, but nevertheless, I understand that he grew up in a different time, with different social and cultural norms and influences. In the end he's my father, and I've always been smart enough to discern the wisdom from the sixty-year old prejudices. It's just an inevitability (or perhaps tendency) of the older generation, I'd say. My father remains my mentor and continues to offered me priceless advice, but that hardly means I've ever agreed with him on any of his close-minded opinions. Ever. We've gotten into plenty heated arguments about it, but in the end what's meaningful about our relationship isn't based on an ignorant, bygone cultural understanding from the 1950s. So Lord knows, I am not going to hold Obama accountable for the sins of the father--especially seeing as how Jeremiah Wright, being a crusader in the Civil Rights campaign, must have infinitely more reasons to be angry than my old man.
The HuffPo article titled 'Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?' got it right (no link, because I'm lazy). You twits need to stop jerking off your visceral fears and examine what it is you're actually so afraid of. One user wrote something on Huffington along the lines of, "Try to understand where this racist is coming from? I don't want to understand!" Well, I suppose some people have already learned all they'll ever need to know about black people from rap music and basketball, so there's no need to look any further into the history an feelings of some of those 1960s Civil Rights fighters who had hot coffee poured on their heads or dogs set on them. Let's disregard the fact that racism doesn't end just when you get rid of colored water fountains, and systematic oppression and discrimination is still alive and well in this country today, and might cause a bubbling reserve of slightly irrational but righteous indignation among oppressed minorities. Let's not even give them the benefit of the doubt. No, let's just take this outburst as a militant threat against white security and cry foul because Geraldine Ferraro didn't get so much understanding. Rev. Wright doesn't speak for Obama, and I don't see how on earth Obama could ever be a hatemonger...unless I'm to believe these oh-so-rich allegations that he's a *secret* hatemonger with a *secret* agenda for America that he'll *secretly* pass despite our time-honored (well, maybe less recently) of checks and balances.
In sum, Hillary people, please stick to dismissing his change. Then you can be snide and all knowing and we can start touting the math and call you delusional and we can all go back to agreeing to disagree. But I'm begging you: do not go down this looney road. I mean, what's next? He's going to paint the White House black? Please.
As for all of those trolls who have started to jabber about how this outburst has sounded the death knell for Obama, I would like to remind you PA is six weeks away. Media coverage is a capricious mistress...or maybe an a child with ADHD...anyway. NAFTAgate was what? Two weeks ago? And who even considers that relevant at this point? If this Wright codswallop is as intense and unrelenting in six weeks as it is now, then maybe you little wonky Nostradamuses can start with the predictions. But 48 hours is a little too soon to start consulting your crystal ball.
So uh, suck it.
Peas
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The timing for the Wright bomb does seem to be off. Someone must have miscalculated. This was supposed to come out a week before Pennsylvania or maybe the weekend before. Six weeks is like an eternity in the media world. Next week we'll have people struggling to remember the name of the former governor of NY.
March 16, 2008 12:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can't choose my father. I can choose my pastor. I can choose a campaign manager, but those usually are for one year. A pastor can be for 20 years or your whole life.
If you disagree with a pastor, why have him bless your house, baptize your children and use one of his lines to name your book? If you disagree with him so much, why would you wait until chest deep in a presidential campaign to disassociate yourself? If you disagree with him so much, why do you send your wife out stumping for you with his attitude hanging off her lips?
Rezko could be temporary poor judgment, but Wright stands for long-term poor judgment or grave miscalculation. Will you bring out, "Hillary made me do it" when/if you get to the general election?
March 16, 2008 8:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
How, praytell, does it reflect poor judgement? I mean, really? Could it be that Obama's relationship with his pastor, like the relationship I have with my father, is founded on advice and wisdom that goes deeper than some heated tirades? You have absolutely no idea what Obama's relationship with his pastor was, you are drawing your entire conclusion based upon youtube clips. So, not knowing the nature of their relationship, aside from the fact it was personal, how does it reflect poor judgment? Was Reverend Wright ever an issue of national security? Was he ever at the center of a powerful decision with broad implications for countless parties involved? Could it be that this man is not, contrary to popular opinion, a one-dimensional character spewing off "hate," but rather a more complex human being with a side unbeknownst to his long-time friends over at Fox news?
Saying that the government made AIDS to kill black people is a nutty claim. So nutty, in fact, that do you think Obama should have marched up to the pulpit or gone on national television and criticized him for thirty minutes about why he disagrees with him? That Obama should have taken these zany outbursts completely seriously and extensively? He said himself the man is like a "crazy uncle." If a homeless person on the street starts talking to me about how the government engineered AIDS to kill poor people, am I going to say "Hold on, pal! I find that claim disgusting and wholly disagree"? Chances are I'll just roll my eyes.
You're grasping at straws here. "Grave miscalculation"? How so? You're just trying to knock down the judgement platform to justify your girl getting the nomination. I see the intent, but I don't really think it's that effective. He's not "blaming" Hillary for anything (even though Geraldine Ferraro blamed Obama for her snafu). Unless you can come up with something more persuasive than "He should've known better, even though I have no idea who Rev. Wright is besides his youtube incarnations," doesn't hold a lot of water. I don't see how it effects his judgement, or how you can even equate this kind of judgement with a matter of national security--because in all those matters, Obama seems to have been pretty spot on.
Yawn.
March 16, 2008 8:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
This man is running for President of the United States. Republicans can run 2 months of ads based just on Rev. Wright and Obama. And what's Obama's excuse? "I didn't know his speeches were that hateful". Here's a man who somehow knew Saddam was no danger with no intelligence information, but can't figure out what's going on in his own church of 20 years? Here's a man who's running on "words are important", and then has to backtrack and say, "but some hateful words aren't that important".
And how can he say he was prepared? Rev. Wright said a year ago he might have to disassociate himself from Obama before this if over, but Obama waits to let this blow up in his face?
Sure, just blame Hillary.
March 16, 2008 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I find it kind of laughable that you keep talking about blaming Hillary when NO ONE is talking about blaming Hillary. Anyway, your cotton-stuffed logic isn't credible, so it's not doing very much good here.
March 16, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would also recommend to Hillary's supporters that they take a look around before they throw stones. There's a few boulders heading your way already. While you're surfing youtube for Wright porn, look up Peter Paul. His allegations (although mostly somewhat absurd), are going to get a lot of airtime when Hillary, Bill, and Chelsea all have to show up in an LA courtroom.
March 16, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Obama is to be hoisted on the petard of one petulant pastor, it must be seen as an open invitation to mock Mitt or any other Mormon for even mulling a run at public office. How American would that be? Not very.
March 16, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's airy, lightweight bubblebath logic that Wright should reflect on Obama in any substantial way. I also find it funny that the evident good side of Wright should be ignored entirely when we question the nature of their twenty year relationship, and we should instead only assume that his controversial remarks were the ones that had any influence on Obama.
March 16, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great, don't tell me, tell Rush Limbaugh, tell Ari Fleischer, tell Karl Rove, tell Pat Robertson. "It was nothing, Wright's a great guy". You remember how quickly they accepted Obama's explanation on Michelle's "First time proud of America" comment. Nice guys, all of them.
This is the problem with the politics of hope - you folks think your enemies are really your friends. Actually you seem to misunderstand most Americans as well. The Swift Boaters gained a lot of traction by out and out lying. What can they do when they don't have to lie, when they even have videotaped recordings to work with?
March 16, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. Let's give up and let the liars win because they're so scary and pushing back with the truth is so obviously not an option.
Got it.
What you don't get is that we didn't expect to be winning this thing. We got onboard because we're not afraid of aspirational politics. Now that we are winning, well, it makes your hand-wringing all that more annoying.
March 16, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
By the way, you know you have no credibility left here at TPM, don't you? Or is it OK in your world to pretend to be an Obama supporter and spew filth on other threads and then show up here acting as if it never happened?
March 16, 2008 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you are truly looking for rational dialog I would suggest you stop insulting people. It appears you would prefer a flame war.
28.6% of the population of the US have a high school diploma. 7.1% have less than a year of college. The vast majority of this 36% of the population don't read, except perhaps some trash fiction on rare occasions, and get all their news in 2 half hour blocks at 6 and 11. That and commercials between football games is what they use to decide who to vote for. They are swing voters, most decidedly jingoistic.
I don't think the relationship with Wright tells us anything about how obama will govern. It does give some idea of his lack of understanding of the common man though. As nice as it is that he can see the good in everyone its not realistic. Judgement requires both an understanding of both the good and the bad in people.
What I fear is that Obama cannot now win the election. There is no doubt that republican 527's will make ads switching between Obama's statements of praise and the connection between him and Wright and Wright yelling God damn America. Olbermann said as much in his interview with Obama and Obama admitted that it was so. This will be highly offensive to the chauvinistic patriotism of the common man.
For all the hyperbole about Clinton behaving like Rove she will not make an ad like this. Therefore its likely she won't get the nomination. But the republicans have no trouble with true Rovian tactics. Ads like this will play night and day on the radio and television. Kerry was swiftboated with less than this. I think its extremely unlikely that he can beat McCain when those ads start playing. Its not fair but unfortunately politicians need the votes of the uneducated masses to win.
March 16, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your stats are screwy. As of 2004, 85 percent of those age 25 or older reported they had completed at least high school. As of 2006, 65 percent of high school graduates went on to enroll in a college or university.
That's not the only thing that's screwy. So is your suggestion that Clinton hasn't behaved like Rove.
This is still up at Hillary's campaign website:
In Case You Missed It: “Obama once visited '60s ‘terrorists’.
http://blog.hillaryclinton.com/blog/main/2008/02/22/143137
She's not going to lose for lack of trying to emulate Rove. But if you want to console yourself that she lost because she just couldn't bring herself to pull out all the Rovian stops, well, if it's consolation you're after, it's understandable that you're well past the point of keeping it real. I've consoled myself with far worse fairy tales.
March 16, 2008 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
My stats come from the US census in 2000. I doubt they have changed that much but they may have some.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-24.pdf
People who keep repeating the hyperbole that Clinton is using Rovian tactics either are too young to remember or weren't paying attention. There is a tv commercial to be made from those Wright videos. In fact in the Olbermann Obama interview Olbermann said that republican 527's will be making an ad of the material and playing it over and over. Obama responded that he knew he would see it again and again. The republicans will make it. Hillary won't. That's the difference between Rovian tactics and a normal messy election fight. This primary has been so nice compared to others I've seen. And I've been watching since Carter.
March 16, 2008 8:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your stats assume that people who've earned a college diploma didn't graduate from high school…
March 16, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Swiftboating was a more noticeable element of Kerry's smearing, but I thought the critical deathblow was the whole "flip-flop" thing. Kerry also didn't see the swiftboat veterans coming. Obama is prepared for this. I just don't think it will hurt him in the way you seem to suggest.
For what it's worse, I initially wrote this for Huffington Post, where the Clinton supporters are generally a lot nastier and incendiary. So, sorry for the nasty tone, Oceankat.
March 16, 2008 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
First of all, I am a diehard Obama supporter and have been following his career for a long time. I come from a working class family, and grew up mostly in the South as a person of mixed race. As if that has anything to do with anything, but there it is just in case.
I do think that the TPM/Daily Kos crowd needs to take this Wright thing more seriously, and recognize that it cannot be written off as racism, right-wing scheming, HRC cloak-and-dagger, or anything else. MJ Rosenberg wrote an eloquent and powerful column the other day about how his rabbi regularly espouses hardcore pro-Israeli sentiments with which MJ doesn't agree, but he sticks with his congregation anyway. This kind of ideological mismatch may be common for many people of faith - liberal Catholics certainly know what it's like to disagree with the authorities in their group - but the situation is different for many Protestants.
Evangelicals, in particular, often shop around for a church and settle on the one whose preacher has a personality and ideology that fits them well. I've known many family members and acquaintances pick up and leave a church over a political or theological dispute with the pastor. Obama's implicit claim that he had no idea that Reverend Wright was so radical is unfortunately pretty hard to believe, and many Protestants who are not already big Obama fans will see it as a very fishy assertion indeed.
It's not enough to say that what Wright said about racist injustice and American history is basically correct -- even though we have to keep pointing out to our fellow citizens that it is. And it's not enough to say, "Oh well, Mike Huckabee probably said worse in his sermons" or McCain's supporter John Hagee is a genuine bigot. Huckabee is not a contender for the Democratic nomination, and Hagee is not McCain's pastor. Even anti-Catholicism is not as toxic and taboo a sentiment in America today as the anti-Americanism that people take from Wright's soundbites. We have got to face up to the fact that there are plenty of Americans who will get miffed when they see a guy saying "God damn America!" and "the government invented AIDS" on TV. It's just true. It's especially damaging since he's so closely associated with the great peacemaker, Obama, whose whole image is about transcending rancor and hatred and so on.
I think Obama's speech in Plainfield was a very strong and intelligent way of responding to this crisis. He has always played it cool and I think he is dexterous enough to work his way out of this. But let's not fool ourselves and say it's not a crisis, as if we can reassure ourselves so much that the problem goes away. Working-class White Guy isn't about to vote for a guy who (through visual association in the media) seems to be hanging out with Farrakhan and the White Devil crowd. Oh my goodness no. We have to take this challenge head-on and explain to our fellow people where Wright is coming from, how Obama is distinct from him, and - above all - how this controversy offers an opportunity to rise above the painful history that has brought it about. But we absolutely cannot pretend that it's a big deal and scoff at those who are taking it seriously.
Thanks for listening.
March 16, 2008 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps the tone of this post seemed more dismissive than I meant it to sound. The point is, though, that I think even though it poses a definite challenge to Obama, I don't think it's going to kill his bid. He clearly knows what's coming, and I have faith in his ability to meet it head on.
March 16, 2008 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Joehigashi,
I was probably responding more to the general tone of posts on TPM about the Wright affair, and not so much yours in particular. I just hope in our little left-liberal bubble that we don't lose sight of how easily Obama's positive, uplifting image could be blown to smithereens with an Osama-bin-Horton style series of attacks -- how quickly the open minds of some white Americans out there could close when they see what looks to them like the Nation of Islam surrounding Obama. This prospect is scary to me. The one upside, as you suggest, is that Obama is smart, and he absolutely MUST have known that this would become an issue sooner or later. So he and his team must have prepared some sort of plan, right? I sure hope so!
March 17, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
While this Rev. Wright imbroglio is dangerous from a wonky/political perspective, what really drives me nuts is how people assert that this has any bearing on Obama's character whatsoever. It's just not even bothering to understand why a black man who lived through the Civil Rights movement could be so angry. I thought some of what he said could've been phrased more artfully, and I think other things he said were downright zany. But in either event, I find it laughable that some people have the gaul to try and pillory Obama for this--as if he's either secretly a hatemonger or that it PROFOUNDLY destroys his claims to good judgment.
The problem is that these issues and why people are responding to them do come down to a matter of race. I'm not saying people who are shocked by it are racists--it's a bogus charge. But it would be equally silly to think that race and a lack of cultural understanding have no point in why the response to this has been so visceral.
March 17, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink