« It's Time, Colin. | north_aufzoo's Blog | Caucuses = Undemocratic. Poaching Delegates = You Betcha! »
Hillary, Democratic Nominee
I have seen quite a few comments charging that the only way Hillary can win the nomination is to effectively destroy the Democratic party. Tear Obama down to the point that he appears unelectable, overrule the decision of the delegates and likely popular majority, leave newly-engaged voters sitting on their hands in November-- these are the scenarios I've seen described again and again. Indeed, I've used some of these arguments myself. But I want to try something different. In the spirit of others who've crossed the sectarian divide on this site, I'd like to conduct a thought experiment:
HRC supporters, draw me a picture of the Denver convention, with your candidate triumphant. Explain how she's gotten to this point, what the convention scene is like, what the Dems' prospects are for the fall, where you envision Obama in all of this. Explain what's happened with the delegates, superdelegates, Florida, Michigan; describe the level of intra-party acrimony or harmony. Feel free to get creative with this-- I am all for reading your imagined HRC convention speeches.
Just one general request: please don't respond if you are just interested in scoring easy political points. There's been too much of that from both camps, and the Democratic nomination will not be won or lost on the comments section of a reader's blog on TPM. I am hoping for a little intellectual honesty here. Who knows? It's possible that the results of such an exercise could offer some comfort both to supporters of Hillary and Obama, and all of us who are likewise anxious about our party's prospects for the fall.
HRC supporters, draw me a picture of the Denver convention, with your candidate triumphant. Explain how she's gotten to this point, what the convention scene is like, what the Dems' prospects are for the fall, where you envision Obama in all of this. Explain what's happened with the delegates, superdelegates, Florida, Michigan; describe the level of intra-party acrimony or harmony. Feel free to get creative with this-- I am all for reading your imagined HRC convention speeches.
Just one general request: please don't respond if you are just interested in scoring easy political points. There's been too much of that from both camps, and the Democratic nomination will not be won or lost on the comments section of a reader's blog on TPM. I am hoping for a little intellectual honesty here. Who knows? It's possible that the results of such an exercise could offer some comfort both to supporters of Hillary and Obama, and all of us who are likewise anxious about our party's prospects for the fall.
Advertisement





And the point of this bait (sorry, experiment!) is what?
March 20, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
The point is to explain the manner in which Hillary Clinton wins nomination because a lot of Obama supporters do not see it happening without a fracture of the party. You can disagree with that, so tell us how and how it can happen where Obama supporters will be satisfied after an initial period of mourning.
Or don't respond if you don't have anything to offer to a perfectly rationale request for the view from HRC camp of supporters (vs Obama camp take on road to nomination for either candidate, which we have heard again and again).
March 20, 2008 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo35adm,
It isn't complicated: the point is to see whether there is a way forward that can keep democrats united. To see whether there is more than one viable route to the convention. This is something I think we all have an interest in exploring. Though not an HRC supporter, I am genuinely looking to be convinced that there is a scenario in which Hillary can win that will 1) be palatable to the majority of the Left, and, 2) that will strengthen our party as as a whole. I have to say, I am not encouraged by your response (or the response of Potus Obama 2008, for that matter, either).
March 20, 2008 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo35adm,
It isn't complicated: the point is to see whether there is a way forward that can keep democrats united. To see whether there is more than one viable route to the convention. This is something I think we all have an interest in exploring. Though not an HRC supporter, I am genuinely looking to be convinced that there is a scenario in which Hillary can win that will 1) be palatable to the majority of the Left, and, 2) that will strengthen our party as as a whole. I have to say, I am not encouraged by your response (or the response of Potus Obama 2008, for that matter, either).
March 20, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's a good thought experiment, and one you should be happy to see. It's your chance to explain how Hillary can win, and win in a way that doesn't destroy the party.
I'll take a shot at it, although I'm not a HRC supporter by any stretch of the imagination.
The super-dels aren't stupid. They aren't going to give the nomination to Hillary unless there's no choice. Doing so would destroy the party, and destroy any chances of winning the general election. There would be massive walkouts at the convention, protests, deep and lasting divisions in the party. So vague hand-wavy arguments about how he probably won't get enough votes from this demographic or that demographic, etc., won't cut it. His supporters would never believe that he wouldn't have been able to win.
So here's the scenario that works (sort of) for Hillary. The key is that Obama has to be destroyed. So utterly destroyed that most of his supporters agree he really has no chance in the general election. So utterly destroyed that the super-dels will be willing to reward Hillary's sleazy campaigning that helped destroy him, endorsing McCain over Obama being at the top of the list. You know that it's going to be part of their calculation: do they let a precedent-setting attack like that be rewarded with the biggest prize they can give, virtually guaranteeing that future nomination races will be equally dirty in the hopes of getting an equal reward? So they have to think that there is absolutely no other choice possible.
In this scenario, the Democratic convention is chaotic. There are some walkouts. Some protests. But enough Obama supporters are reluctantly going along with the super-dels overruling the primary and caucus voters that they get through the convention with Hillary declared the nominee.
If a Hillary supporter can put a rosier spin on how things would look under the sorts of circumstances that result in Hillary getting the nomination, I'd like to hear it. I think she's aiming for the sort of "win" that will leave the Democratic party deeply weakened, but it's the only chance she has left.
March 20, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Best Case Senario:
Obama wins the nomination by leading in delegates, most states won and popular vote but is convinced by supers he needs Hillary on the ticket to secure win to Dems in Nov.
Obama / Hillary dream ticket is negotiated by Dem party leaders which lift both candidates and their respective supporters to unify and move towards larger goal to win the GE.
Worst Case Senario:
Hillary goes out in the convention kicking and screaming and is eventually put into rehab with Rush Limbaugh.
March 20, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I’m not a fervent Hillary supporter. Contrary to popular perception of the Clinton “magic,” her performance as a candidate has been somewhat inept. Nonetheless, I am consistently surprised by the premature epitaphs attached to her campaign. It’s not hard at all to imagine a simple scenario in which she earns the nomination without tearing down Obama and destroying the Democratic Party (a fanciful notion - you all give her too much credit). Here goes.
Hillary wins Pennsylvania convincingly, as appears likely, and performs well in the remaining contests. As a result, Obama goes into the convention (or into the Summer) with a slim lead in pledged delegates, but not enough to put him over the top. True, Obama has won more states and has marginally greater delegate support, but the number of voters who actually showed up for each candidate is basically a wash, and may even favor Hillary if you count the Florida beauty contest, in which millions voted, regardless of whether their delegates are seated (let’s toss out Michigan since Obama wasn’t on the ballot; and btw, if the Florida vote had been translated into delegates it’s not even clear Obama would be in the lead).
In that case, the decision rightfully goes to the Superdelegates to exercise their best judgment as to who should win the nomination (I’m not saying this is a good thing, but this is what the geniuses have devised). Given that (1) many of Obama’s victories came in caucus states where a strong grassroots organization of highly motivated voters can mask thin popular support, (2) many of those victories and votes came in states where the Democrats have no real chance of winning, (3) Obama seems to have had a difficult time broadening his base beyond the liberal-intellectual and African American wings of the party, and (4) Obama’s lack of national exposure leading to the possibility of his being negatively defined by the Republican attack machine (as appears to be happening now), it would not be unreasonable for a majority of the Superdelegates to conclude that Hillary - who convincingly won New York, California, Florida (beauty contest I know, but important nonetheless), Ohio and Pennsylvania - would make the best candidate.
Where would that leave the Party in November? Fractured and angry with a wounded nominee many would perceive as illegitimate and a large portion of its base (I’m thinking mostly of African Americans here) feeling robbed. The only possible way to heal the divide would be to include Obama on the ticket, although that too seems unlikely and would carry drawbacks in the general election. However, while this scenario is bleak, the alternative, an Obama led ticket, while avoiding some of the rancor, has its own drawbacks.
March 20, 2008 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think there is anything you can say at this point to convince an Obama supporter that the super delegates should exercise their best judgment. The different factions of the Democratic Party use elections to increase their power in the Party and claim their share of the spoils after the election. The main impact of a Clinton nomination at Denver would be a potentially substantial increase in the power and influence of Hispanics at the expense of Blacks. Black politicians and Black voters are not going to piss away everything they've won over the last 50 years, no matter how loudly the latte libs urge them to. They will put their shoulders to the Clinton wheel in the general election, not because they can be taken for granted, but because it is clearly in their interest to do so. And they will do it whether Obama is on her ticket or not. The rest of you can rest on your lofty ideals.
March 20, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Billy,
This was your post yesterday:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/what-if-clinton-wins-north-car.php
You received comments by two Obama supporters, saying that 'yes, Superdelegates should vote their conscience.'
So, why do you say this today?:
"I don't think there is anything you can say at this point to convince an Obama supporter that the super delegates should exercise their best judgment."
Your question and follow-up statement make sense if, and only if, you equate the Superdelegates conscience or judgment for what is best for the party with voting for Hillary.
Are you willing to accept that the Superdelegates endorsing Obama are doing so using their conscience and judgement of what is best for the Party (and the country)?
Please answer that question, do not leave us hanging...!
(PS: Your interest in pitting Blacks against Latinos, rather than in working for a common goal, tells a lot about your conscience and your judgement of what is better for the Party.)
March 20, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am an Obama supporter. There is absolutely no doubt and I have said it over and over.
But here is the reality. I believe it in my heart. There is no way Hillary Clinton can take this nomination and not cause total chaos for the Democratic Party. It will be total destruction of the party for the next decade.
The only way Clinton can get the nomination and not ruin the party is to win the popular vote, pledged delegate count, and most states. Since she can not achieve this trifecta, Obama supporters will feel cheated in the end. That is a fact.
I also belive that if Obama maintains the lead in popular vote, pledged delegates, and total states... most Hillary voters will come around because he won the three different ways to view victory in this race.
Michigan and Florida can not and will not count...and please don;t say that these states invalidate Obama's victory. They knew the rules. They borke the rules. The knew what the punishment should be. They need to suffer the punishment.
The ONLY way Hillary gets the nomination is the total destruction of Obama as a candidate. Sadly, that too will destroy the party as Obama's supporters will see this for the mean-spirited anti-party objective that it is. Moreover, if Obama loses in the fall and it is viewed that he lost because he was too damaged by the Hillary in Democratic primary, then Hillary can pack up her campaign materials for 2012 as well. We won't forget. I will bust out my "Anyone but Clinton 2012" sticker the day after the November 2008 election.
Lalo, you seem level headed. Let's make an agreement. If Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote, the most pledged delegates, and the most states in the primary. I will gladly vote for her. Will you do the same for Obama? If not, then I question your commitment to the principals of the Democratic Party. And don;t tell me McCain is a better candidate, as he is the polar opposite to both Oabama's and Clinton's views.
Overall, I simply don't see how Hillary can "win" this nomination without a terrible backlash. Is it worth it to her to do this much damage just for the nomination ? If the answer is yes, then I think I dislike her even more.
Superdelegates will step in the day after Indiana and put an end to this, I have strong faith.
Dave
March 20, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me ask you a question that may shed some light on your question and on the seriousness of your concern for the Party. If Clinton beats Obama in North Carolina, will you concede that the super delegates should vote their consciences and do what they think is right for the Party?
March 20, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can hardly speak for Mr Aufzoo, but speaking as an Obama supporter I would hope that the supers would vote as their "consciences" (although that strikes me as a strained use of the term) and do what they think best for the party in any circumstance. Clinton wins PA, Clinton loses PA, Obama wins NC, Obama loses NC. Any way that things shake out, I would hope that the supers vote according to their own best judgement. Why else even have them?
March 20, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. All well and good, Greg. But we've known you're rational for a long time now. You must know I'm talking to the people who just can't seem to find a way to put their faith in the super delegates no matter what. I picked the NC contest because it's hard to see how he could lose it if his base remains intact.
March 20, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, Billy, forgive my ignorance, but who's that on your avatar? (It couldn't be John Stamos, could it?) I am curious to find out, and a little embarrassed not to know already.
March 20, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a fair question, Billy. If HRC has undeniable momentum coming out of PA and then wins NC--certainly, if she goes on to run the table, or win more of the last 10 states and keep it close in the places she doesn't prevail--then the scene would look very different going into the convention. Most of the super delegates have been testing the waters this entire time. They'll just be putting an exclamation point on whatever the prevailing political winds are going into the convention. And though the signs point to Obama right now, we've been surprised before in this election. The Obama supporters who say the super dels HAVE to go with whoever is winning in delegates, states, are fooling themselves... In fact, I think it is sort of an uninspired (and potentially dumb) argument to try and argue that Obama deserves the nomination on points rather than continue to argue Obama's strengths and electability to the superdels.
My short answer to you, then, is this: if Hillary can win NC and win it clean--by building herself up rather than tearing others down, by making people feel good about their vote, rather than disgusted by the process--then it may well be time to reset the game clock, and super dels will certainly be giving her another look.
March 20, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Obama supporters who say the super dels HAVE to go with whoever is winning in delegates, states, are fooling themselves...
There probably are Obama supporters who say that.
But I'm saying, and I think most Obama supporters are saying, it's not that they MUST go with whoever is winning in delegates. It's that if they ignore that Obama is winning in delegates, given that it's a race for delegates, then they should consider the consequences.
If there's not a compelling case for overruling the primary and caucus voters, then they're going to piss off millions of primary and caucus voters. Hillary supporters just assume this is no big deal, that there will be some hurt feelings and then everyone will rally behind Hillary.
But suppose the tables were turned. Suppose Hillary had the delegate lead, and Obama had not run a campaign capable of overtaking that lead. Further suppose that in trying to catch up, Obama had run a particularly nasty campaign, making the unprecedented argument that Hillary was less ready to be C-in-C than McCain (which is true, if like Hillary you let the Republicans frame the question).
And suppose there is some argument being made that Obama is more electable. It's not a clear argument. It's full of conjecture, and tendentious claims about demographics, etc. Certainly it's not an argument that convinces most Hillary supporters, who continue to think she will win against McCain.
So now the super-dels throw the election to Obama, on the basis of this argument. Think about how Hillary supporters, very few of them convinced that Hillary wouldn't win the general, will react to having their votes overruled by the party elite. The party would be fractured in a way that I wouldn't expect to make the super-del's nominee a viable candidate.
Back in reality, it's Obama that has the insurmountable lead. And the super-dels should consider the consequences of giving the election to Hillary on the basis of a hand-wavy argument that only Hillary supporters find compelling.
March 21, 2008 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Billy, at your insistance, I will repost,
This was your post yesterday:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/what-if-clinton-wins-north-car.php
You received comments by two Obama supporters, saying that 'yes, Superdelegates should vote their conscience.'
So, why do you say this today?:
"I don't think there is anything you can say at this point to convince an Obama supporter that the super delegates should exercise their best judgment."
Your question and follow-up statement make sense if, and only if, you equate the Superdelegates conscience or judgment for what is best for the party with voting for Hillary.
Are you willing to accept that the Superdelegates endorsing Obama are doing so using their conscience and judgement of what is best for the Party (and the country)?
Please answer that question, do not leave us hanging...!
March 20, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aha! And there lies the problem for Hillary. She can not win North Carolina "cleanly". It will only come from more mud-slinging and a lack of focus on the issues.
Barack Obama is addressing race right now because Hillary has backed him into a corner and forced it.
And regardless of what she throws his way, Obama probably wins NC, wins OR, wins MT, and probably IN as well.
And I am so over polls! yes Hillary won NY and CA in the primary, but if you want to talk polls... Obama leads McCain by greater in those states.
Polls Schmolls. Talk to me about polls after the conventions nominate McCain and Obama. Then I'll care about polls.
March 20, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I completely missed this entire thread, sorry. If anyone wants to continue or restart, let me know.
March 20, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only way that Hillary can win the nomination without fracturing the party, and losing in November, is to win more selected delegates than Senator Obama.
That is the only way. If Senator Obama goes to the convention with more selected delegates than Hillary then he is the rightful nominee.
All this nonsense about how Hillary would be more electable in November is pointless. There is no way to prove that. If she does not win the most selected delegates, then she will go to the convention as the loser. We do not send the loser of the semi-final match on to the championship bout. It is an absurd notion.
Just a little reality check for all those who may be buying into the Hillary, as a winner, spin coming from her camp.
Iowa, Iowa, Iowa.
She had every advantage in that State, and had an enormous lead over the rest of the field. She finished up in third place. Senator Obama beat the odds on favorite, Hillary, and she did not even come in second.
She has squandered huge leads in many states. Look at how far ahead she was in Texas, just weeks before the held their primary.
To the winner belong the spoils. This is America. We do not hold Coronations here to Crown some loser.
To the winner belongs the spoils, and to the spoiler belongs the whines.
March 21, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a touchy subject, almost as toxic as bringing up race. but I'll give it a shot.
Best case scenario:
- Hillary runs off a series of wins.
- Big victory in Penn.
- Close victories in Ind. and NC
- Convincing victories in W. Va and Puerto Rico
- Win or lose in Ky., Ore., Mont., SD (would help
to win one of these states)
- voting patterns show that Obama has lost support
with white voters, especially male voters.
- Hillary will say that she is more electable.
Just look at the numbers. Obama is loosing
support from white males. This puts a kink in
his 50 state strategy. Hillary will say that
the GE is going to play out blue state/red
state. I am more electable in that playing
field.
- The supers give Hillary the nomination. Half
of the Dems, are pissed. This is when
Obama's great talent for speech and persuasion
comes useful. Obama takes one for the team
while looking towards a future run for the
office and delivers his best speech to date.
He fully endorses Clinton and asks his flock
to play along. They begrudgingly give their
support for Hillary.
- Hillary is elected POTUS
How does that work for you?
March 21, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just look at the numbers.
Oh, yes, that's another thing. When Hillary supporters say "look at the numbers" they mean look at the primary voting numbers. And they want you to look at those numbers with the assumption that if a particular demographic leaned toward Hillary rather than Obama, even when it was pretty close, then the proper conclusion is that Obama wouldn't do any better with that demographic in the general.
Look at that again. The assumption they want you to make is that a voting pattern in a choice between two democrats predicts a voting pattern against McCain.
What Hillary supporters emphatically do not mean when they say "look at the numbers" is "look at the McCain-vs-Obama and McCain-vs-Hillary" polling numbers. You can guess why.
March 21, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
rabbit, I have a suggestion, "look" at the original post and read what it asks for.
March 21, 2008 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
The issue for me isn't whether the super-dels should use their own best judgment. It's what "best judgment" means.
To Hillary supporters, it doesn't mean "best judgment" at all. That's perhaps why Billy says "vote their conscience," whatever that means. Ignoring the consequences isn't "best judgment" and Hillary supporters want them to ignore the consequences.
I think their best judgment should take into account the effects of overruling the primary and caucus voters. What good is it to give the nomination to Hillary in a way that fractures the party, resulting in a convention in which there are walkouts, protests, general chaos, etc.?
I think their best judgment should take into account that giving the nomination to Hillary would mean rewarding her for a campaign so sleazy that it sets new precedents for sleaze. Has any Democratic presidential nominee ever stated that the Republican opponent is better qualified to be Commander in Chief than another competing Democratic nominee? Is this the kind of behavior they want to reward?
I think their best judgment should take all of the above into account. Hillary supporters want them to ignore all of that, and take some very abstract view of "who can win" that doesn't have much at all to do with who can really win. If you they do that much damage to the party, Hillary loses, too. Everyone loses.
March 21, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can someone please explain to me, from a realistic political perspective, WHY any "superdelegate" representing a state where Mr. Obama won the popular vote AND received the most delegates, would choose to unilaterally overrule both the majority of his/her voting constituency and his/her state's government representatives who elected the delegates at their state's convention, by voting for Mrs. Clinton? Why would they knowingly alienate their voters and their state's power brokers? Perhaps in some EXTREME circumstances where the voters and the state's power brokers were trying to subvert the poltical process or promote a candidate who just announced he/she wanted to invade Canada and take over their oil reserves, I can see that as a viable option. However, I do not see that as an option under the current circumstances. What am I missing? Why would a "superdelegate" commit career suicide in their state?
March 21, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
courage, for-sight, wanting to back a winner are a couple of reasons.
March 21, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
And how many politicians do you know who possess those qualities who would also be willing to sacrifice their careers to be a short- term "winner" because they believe Hillary Clinton would become a president worthy of their long-term sacrifice?
March 21, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who said anything about short term. Winning can do a lot to change peoples minds. Granted, it looks as if the new POTUS is going to have a tough time of it.
March 21, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink