A response to a certain troll
I posted this as a comment, but buried in a long list of replies to a troll who posts in high volume it won't do any good. I hope no one minds the repost as a blog entry, but because this particular troll is so very offensive, I want to make a record of this. It still probably won't do any good but here goes.
The troll wrote:I do not know your educational background but most style guides traditionally suggest capitalizing Black, White, Asian, etc.
Let's check that. Google:http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=capitalization+style-guide+black+white
First hit:
Second hit:
Third hit:
Fourth hit:
Similarly for every style guide returned on the first two pages of hits.
On the other hand, if you search for "capitalize the word White" you find a lot of revolting pages. For example:
And on a white supremacist bulletin board with a discussion on "Should We Capitalize Names of Races?":
and other disgusting tripe like this:
So there you have it. I'm grateful that he's not supporting Obama, and clearly there's no danger that he ever would, but the vast majority of Hillary supporters presumably want to have nothing to do with him either. I doubt he can be shamed into leaving, but maybe this helps to expose one of his most frequent lies.
In case the formatting on this is atrociously bad, which is very likely, here's a link to the comment:http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/clinton-scores-knockout-on-ore.php#comment-2770972
The troll wrote:I do not know your educational background but most style guides traditionally suggest capitalizing Black, White, Asian, etc.
Let's check that. Google:http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=capitalization+style-guide+black+white
First hit:
Capitalize the proper names of nationalities, peoples, races, tribes and so on: African American, American Indians, Arab, Asian, Jewish, Latino, Muckleshoot, Tulalip, Puyallup. Lowercase black, white, red and so on.
Second hit:
15) Names of all races and nationalities.
African American (but black), Caucasian (but white), Nigerian, Irish, Japanese
Third hit:
Do not capitalize broad racial terms (nationalities); do capitalize more specific terms
black, white
Caucasian, Filipino
Fourth hit:
In informal writing, where specific racial and ethnic identification would seem stilted, the terms black and white are sometimes preferable with reference to individuals of African American and European American ancestry. Note that these terms are used both as nouns and adjectives. In both cases, they represent distinct groups of people. However, the terms are not proper nouns and, hence, are not capitalized.
Similarly for every style guide returned on the first two pages of hits.
On the other hand, if you search for "capitalize the word White" you find a lot of revolting pages. For example:
I have tried to remember to capitalize the word 'White' out of courtesy to the White Nationalists who sponsor this forum.
And on a white supremacist bulletin board with a discussion on "Should We Capitalize Names of Races?":
This argument doesn't hold water, to me, because the people who capitalize "white" capitalize "black" too, even though they usually have very negative opinions.
and other disgusting tripe like this:
I realize I am inconsistent in this and I am aware of probably capitalizing White more than Black. Why? I suppose I am transgressing the rule but I think I am trying to compensate for the lack of respect shown to White people and the White race today.And that's just from the first page of ten hits.
So there you have it. I'm grateful that he's not supporting Obama, and clearly there's no danger that he ever would, but the vast majority of Hillary supporters presumably want to have nothing to do with him either. I doubt he can be shamed into leaving, but maybe this helps to expose one of his most frequent lies.
In case the formatting on this is atrociously bad, which is very likely, here's a link to the comment:http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/clinton-scores-knockout-on-ore.php#comment-2770972
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Thanks for your research and for your post. TPM shouldn't be misused as a place for posting racsit hate speech, however it is disguised.
April 30, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this is way past his bed time.
April 30, 2008 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, thanks to:
anObamaDemocrat
jweb271
articleman
roo_P
and Gman
for trying to get this troll to come to grips with the material that some of us find so offensive and shouldn't have to see here. I spent a good part of the afternoon trying to get it to address its "Obama's half-Black arm around a White candidate" comment but couldn't get a response. I'm glad that you had the fortitude to take it to task on this issue. Hopefully it will have some effect.
Thanks guys.
April 30, 2008 11:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You were brilliant in that thread. I laughed every single time I saw your comments.
May 1, 2008 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Hilary. I would rather spend my time on other issues, but one has to clean house every now and then.
May 1, 2008 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
The tired and thirsty prospector threw himself down at the edge of the watering hole and started to drink. But then he looked around and saw skulls and bones everywhere. ' Uh-oh,' he thought. 'This watering hole is reserved for skeletons.
April 30, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Opus Hussein X,
You and many of the Obama Cult are so full of BS that it is beyond pathetic. Your devolve into derogatory and offensive rants and insults as a normal mode of responding to critics of the Dear Leader. You all set a very low standard of what character is required to be an Obama supporter.
I humored you with your discourse tonight thinking incorrectly that there might be chance of a meaningful discussion, despite your clear ignorance and offensiveness. Enough. You do not warrant the respect of further responses to your baseless commentary.
Matthew
http://www.TheIndependentView.com
May 1, 2008 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wait, how is calling us the Obama cult not derogatory and offensive? I'm sure you plan on teaching your twins about the golden rule, right? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Well, since I've been here, you usually rant about how racist Obama is and how his supporters are cult members. So, pull the plank out of your own eye before you try to remove the speck from ours.
Dang, they always did tell me that Sunday school would be useful someday.
May 1, 2008 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Matt, You should take your "White" and "Black" and "Obama's half-Black arm" bullshit somewhere else, we're all full up here. Obviously it doesn't matter how much information is put in front of you, you are too blinded by your bias to see anything.
May 1, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't it funny how you can put facts right in front of someone, and they can ignore them? Mankind can be truly evil.
May 1, 2008 1:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Matt, Rabbit has caught you up. His research is definitive. You are at a crossroads. If you continue to use this incorrect grammar, there will be no excuse for you--you will be a racist. If you were ignorant before, you now know better.
We'll be watching to see which path you take.
May 1, 2008 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, Weaver.. how's your Mormon outrage now that we know that almost 30 girls at the FLDS compound were impregnated under-age, some as young as 12? Are you still up in arms about the state "over-reaching" in the absence of evidence?
May 1, 2008 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hope some animal never bores a hole in my head and lays its eggs in my brain, because later you might think you're having a good idea but it's just eggs hatching.
May 1, 2008 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
BTW, as two examples:
Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed.), section 7.35 states "The term Black is now often capitalized as the widely accepted name of the dark-skinned group or groups of people originating in Africa." They go on to say that alternatives include African American, White, Asian, Latina/Latino, etc.
The US GPO Style Manual (29th ed.), as well, in section 4, uses caps.
And I don't think either publication would be labeled racist.
Matthew
May 1, 2008 12:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, spoke a minute too soon. Maybe Rabbit's research is not so definitive. Rabbit, response?
May 1, 2008 12:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
The current Chicago Manual of Style says to use lower case. Section 8.43.
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/indexL.html
It's possible that an earlier edition said otherwise, and the USGPO style guide does use upper case.
I stand by the search results. The overwhelming majority of style guides say to use lower-case.
And more to the point, searching for pages that discuss the "controversy" over whether or not to capitalize Black and White takes you directly to some very ugly white supremacy web sites.
May 1, 2008 2:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
What does your style manual say about describing Obama's "half-Black arm around a White candidate"?
May 1, 2008 12:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Weaver,
Inquiring minds want an answer to the Morman outrage question?
May 1, 2008 1:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's funny. The GPO capitalizes anything and everything.
May 1, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Birth of a Nation.
God, I love that film.
Watthew
http://www.TheMyopicView.com
May 1, 2008 12:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Are you serious? The movie is nothing but a promotion of the KKK and it glorifies white supremacism. It's terrible. I guess it fits the image the TPM crowd already has of you though.
May 1, 2008 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oops. Did I say that out loud?
I meant 'Look Who's Talking, Too'
I love THAT film.
Watthew
http://www.ThePresbyopicView.com
May 1, 2008 1:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Someone has highjacked Matt's avatar - check the name spelling.
May 1, 2008 1:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Watthew, you're getting fuzzy. Are you feeling well?
Mind if I nibble on the beard for a bit?
Hmmm, Salty!
Meheheheh.
May 1, 2008 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Who can I slap with my half-black hand?
May 1, 2008 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well louisev, you can slap my half-black/half-white penguin behind since it seems that I've been so naughty today.
May 1, 2008 12:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Honestly, guys, thanks for troubling to take on that troll. I hope (but doubt) he means it when he says upthread that he's going away. If he disappears, I'll be very grateful to you for driving him away. And of course, as you point out, he didn't mean anything non-racist by "half-Black arm around a White woman", or whatever he said.
I don't think there's any magic to whether or not "black" and "white" are capitalized, though. White supremacists like to capitalize "white" and "black". But so what? Kimberle Crenshaw capitalizes "Black". Patricia Williams doesn't. Neither of these anti-racist black law professors could remotely be accused of being a secret white supremacist. I happen to agree with Williams, Opus and most style guides that "black" and "white" should not be capitalized because they are racial ascriptions that encompass many ethnic identities. (Although the "race" vs. "ethnicity" distinction is a blurry one. I won't open that can of worms here.")
I'm not defending Weaver -- clearly, he is a racist troll -- but it's not because he capitalizes those words. It's because he says racist things about black people every day.
If you fighting him on his racism is worth it, well, it's good to fight against racism so that at least he can't assume, as most racists do, that most white people secretly agree with him. I see the value in it. On the other hand, arguing with Weaver seems like teaching a pig to sing -- it wastes your time, and annoys the pig. Life's too short. I hope he goes away. If he won't, well, he can kiss my "half-Black" ass. (Not literally.)
May 1, 2008 1:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't it funny how he says racist things everyday and no one really stands up to him, yet whether he uses is shift key on a letter gets a posse going?
May 1, 2008 1:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's not entirely accurate. Weaver calls Obama a racist in every one of his posts. And he loudly denies being a racist in about a third of his comments here. That's what my research into his comments here has revealed so far. In truth, Weaver is extremely cagey and careful to not conflate his Obama hate with any opinion on other races. There's some hints, but I need to do some more digging before coming to a certain conclusion.
May 1, 2008 3:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
He marked himself as a racist troll early on. That is why I have not fed him. Any response is a payday for his ilk. now there is an entire thread dedicated to him. He will never go away. If you want him to go away you have to ignore him.
May 1, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, is this entire thread serious or is this a fine art class doing a performance art project involving a parody of blog sociopathy?
It's like this cartoon:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
May 1, 2008 1:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, Lamont. That made me laugh. But that's also a completely accurate picture of my life.
Not to trivialize, but I am always careful to capitalize Internets-American.
May 1, 2008 1:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lamont!
Been making robo-calls in NC?
Meheheheh.
May 1, 2008 1:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
The current Chicago Manual of Style says to use lower case. Section 8.43.
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/indexL.html
It's possible that an earlier edition said otherwise, and the USGPO style guide does use upper case.
I stand by the search results. The overwhelming majority of style guides say to use lower-case.
And more to the point, searching for pages that discuss the "controversy" over whether or not to capitalize Black and White takes you directly to some very ugly white supremacy web sites.
May 1, 2008 2:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure that in 1960, the Chicago Manual of Style was still using the term "Negro" as well.
May 1, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual from 2003 in Rule 8.43 does still provide that "Negro" and "Negroes" should be capitalized. What was missed in the earlier citation to this rule is that with regard to "designation based loosely on color" which are usually lowercase, "capitalization may be appropriate if the writer strongly prefers it"-as in when membership in the Aryan brotherhood so requires.
May 1, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if the Chicago Manual of Style has been abridged to handle blogging terms like m'tard? It seems truly bizarre to refer to Negroes, Afro-Americans, African Americans and then blacks. So I typically capitalize it. Similary, it seems strange to refer to Caucasians, WASPS, Anglos, Anglo-Saxons and then whites. I've heard there are smart people up there in Chicago and probably this Manual was put together by a bunch of Senior Lecturers Perfessers, but I'd say perhaps folks are jumping the shark a bit here. But hey, wake's up, have at it.
May 1, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink