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Clinton Firewall: Based on Race?


I know it's considered poor form to post a short blog with a link, but I find this data very compelling and don't recall seeing it elsewhere:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3597/the_clinton_firewall/

There are other variables, to be sure that are left out:  time (which gives you a sense of momentum) and open or closed primary are just two obvious ones.

And yet, it's difficult to get around the fact that the case made in the article:  that racism is a factor in this election for some, does ring true. 

Of course, Hillary supporters have claimed sexism at every turn.  Still, as Alice Walker has pointed out, Obama is called a "black man" but Hillary is not referred to as a "white woman". 

Regardless of the general interpretation made in the article, the data does stand there -- ready for you to give your own theories.


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Wow. Thanks for pointing us to this article, CT.

Most of Sirota's analysis is spot on. I appreciate the visual he provides to illustrate the race chasm he speaks about. It's something most of us have acknowledged by this time, but the visual presentation is quite stark, no?

I have a lot of respect for most of Sirota's work. I have to say I was shocked at the last paragraph of his piece--it was pretty damning. But it reflects my view of this situation as well.

I've been thinking about this issue for awhile. Race comes up for Obama, as something he needs to explain or justify (not unreasonable after Rev. Wright).

But the flip side, which isn't talked about enough, is the often stated "blue collar white voters won't vote for Obama." Article after article repeats this line and then moves on.

But what is this line really saying? "Clinton's strategy relies on white racist voters." Another corollary that isn't spoken aloud: "A large segment of the the Democratic base consists of people who are at least racist enough to distrust a black candidate."

It strikes me as an elephant in the middle of the Democratic room.

It is the elephant in the room. And frankly, I don't think either Obama or Clinton want to deal with the issue.

Obama may not want to because discussing the fact that many of his wins have been made possible by an over-whelming African American vote in his favor. This is all well and good in a Democratic primary race. But considering that many, if not most African American voters are Democrats anyway, Obama has basically used up his buffer just getting through round one. Like I said, easier to create more bigots than black voters by November.

Clinton definitely does not want to discuss this, because when the facts were figured out, she chose to run a Southern Strategy campaign,instead of opening discussing the issue and appealing to pragmatism and common sense. At this point, with more and more coming out, it is too late to deny the nature of her campaign (especially since February), and bringing it out in the light for discussion will cause many Democrats to have to repudiate the racist/race based pillars of the argument she offers, and therefore repudiate Clinton as well.

This is the kind of bs analysis that grossly demonizes Hillary. "Ruthlessness"? Give me a break.

It is obvious to everyone that Obama has had some problems winning racially diverse states that are not heavily AA. As the article says race is less of a political issue when everyone is white. I grew up in NYC, went college in OH., and came back for grad school in NYC. I know exactly what that statement means.

Obama gave his emergency / save my career speech on race, because he knew that Wright was going to be a major problem. We all looked at the polls after Wright to see the damage. Why wouldn't Hillary bring this up to the supers since electability has always been a part of her argument. There is no "ruthlessness". Its not like she is telling the supers that Obama is a racist pig and dividing the supers from black and white. Or going on national TV and asking for his head. I thought that she handled it in the best way possible. When asked the question, she took a dig and it hasn't been brought up since. Thats perfectly within the playing field. This isn't to say that it might not be brought up again. Personally, I would find it a little tasteless, but there has been plenty of bs to go around.

Hey Rodin, check out another article from Matt Bai on the same topic. Much less slanted toward a particular candidate.


"Hey Rodin, check out another article from Matt Bai on the same topic. Much less slanted toward a particular candidate."

Hmmm. Regarding these primaries, I wouldn't characterize anything by Matt Bai as "less slanted." Perhaps to a Hillary supporter....

But then again, to some of Hillary's supporters (Ed Rendell), Fox News is now THE fair and balanced news source.

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Hey Rodin, check out another article from Matt Bai on the same topic. Much less slanted toward a particular candidate.

“hope” is kind of a dumb slogan after all

nope - no slant here.

As for the gist of the original post - I had an idea after reading airwon's link. Could it be that it is easier for certain types of voters (not dittoheads) to cast a lazy vote for Clinton in a primary, than in caucuses?

No thought required so it does not require them to challenge their pre-dispositions?

After saying that, WI (a primary) comes to mind - but it straddles the fence and was evenly split in 2004, so it has a larger predisposition to the independent view.

Elliotness,

I think you are being way too sensitive about the phrase. Its not an insult. The phrase actually emphasis the lasting effect of Obama's message.

Please indulge me and re read the article if you really think that it is insulting. Its not.

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Back at you - if you read my comment, you will notice I only dwell on the slant component for a sentence. Nay, a fragment of a sentence.

Objectivity is in the eye of the beholder.

As for your interpretation on that line... I am not following you.

There might still be an unforeseen turn in the titanic clash between Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama, but the way it looks now, the outcome will probably rest with the party’s nearly 800 superdelegates, many of whom will no doubt expect to be bribed and beseeched by both campaigns. If that’s the case, there is about as much chance of settling the issue before the convention as there is of, say, Obama waking up one morning and deciding that “hope” is kind of a dumb slogan after all.


Its just saying that Obama is never going to give up his message of hope.

The primary difference between these two articles is that in Bai's article it's some undefined "social undercurrents", whereas Sirota is showing you what this undercurrent really is. Offering up Bai's article as "less biased" is, in this sense, ridiculous.

The primary difference between these two articles is that in Bai's article it's some undefined "social undercurrents", whereas Sirota is showing you what this undercurrent really is. Offering up Bai's article as "less biased" is, in this sense, ridiculous.

Showing us the undercurrent you say? The voting pattern has been clear as day. The empirical data is there for all to see. Sirota doesn't try to explain why people vote the way they vote. Instead he treats Clinton like the evil puppet master who manipulates people with race. The issue of race baiting is an arguable one. Sirota has already made his conclusions and preaches to the converted.

There is no undercurrent. The empirical data is there for everyone to see. Sirota says hands off. You can't use it because it is racist and undemocratic. I don't agree.


Of course, it doesn’t hurt Clinton’s cause that, close to half of the superdelegates are white, according to The Politico.

this is classic BS. what the hell does this accusatory statement mean? it doesn't sound like an advantage when less than 1/2 are white. nevermind the fact that Obama has contributed more money to the remaining supers than clinton has.

to clarify, whatever the undercurrent is, Bai doesn't try to define it and neither does Sirota. Sirota just blames Clinton for using the data because of what it represents.

With all due respect, the only people demonizing the Clintons have been the Clintons.

People have been speaking about the wink/nod racism of the Clinton campaign for quite some time, so this is nothing new.

I predict, that as the race becomes harder fo Hillary to win, the racial edge of her campaign will become much sharper.

They have been a lot more carful since the Ferraro fiasco, but, as things get worse, they will have no choice but to become clearer in their appeals to the bigot vote.

The reason why Hillary cannot say everything she wants to in polite company,as Mark Halperin put is in a recent fox intervie, is because doing so would force a discussion of racism in terms the Clintons cannot handle right now. Because frankly, repudiating the racism of the Clinton campaingn would mean repudiating Hillary as well.

This is bull.

In the general election, Democrats will only have one choice. If it's Obama, I don't think race will be their major, number one issue, do you? I think Democrats will vote Democrat. No matter what their own race.

Lis,

Generally, I think that would be true. I certainly was one who thought that way. But when the Clinton campaign decided to stoop to exploiting race (lately through repeatedly calling attention to Rev. Wright), I decided this is where I'll draw the line. And no, this isn't an hysterical take-my-toys-and-go-home decision. I understand that exploiting whites' racial fears is to be expected from Republicans. I just can't deal with it coming from Democrats. Especially since Obama's race doesn't hurt him enough to keep him from being every bit as serious and viable a Democratic nominee as Hillary. He's winning. If they successfully exploit his race to knee-cap him in an effort to scare the superdels into over-turning his lead among Democratic voters, it will place shame on the entire Democratic Party. IMO.

Sorry, sounds like your taking your ball and going home Laura. And it sounds like your a one issue voter. That issue being race.

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I tried to stop myself from hitting the reply button...

But you are just being dishonest. She is not claiming any such thing.

If they successfully exploit his race to knee-cap him in an effort to scare the superdels into over-turning his lead among Democratic voters, it will place shame on the entire Democratic Party.

Shame is spot on. Nowhere does she say she will take her toys and leave, and no where does she say that this is the only issue she is voting on.

But why am I arguing with you. You are just out with your fishing line to see who will bite.

I am an independent, but if the Dems make an electability decision because they feel the country will not vote for a Black Man, then we are back to the dixiecrat era. We already have Republicans playing that game - black, gay, whatever, so what makes the Democratic party special if they stoop that low?

And I am telling you he won't lose because he is AA. He will lose cause he is an empty suit on the issues. The pocket books/mom and pop/joe bag of donut issues. Once we get past talking about race which surely we will it comes down to the person that can get the job done. Barack Obama today in 2008 could be orange and he'd still not be in a position to be the best representative of the Democratic Party. And yes, nessy, it is the Democratic Party that is nominating someone. Not The Democratic Party and Independents......I asked you before. Why not pick a side?

I don't think that most of these people in this party are concerned with his race. We look at issues. I just wish we'd all talk about the things that we want our Candidate to get done rather than driving down either one.

And I am not fishing. I just can't let folks get on here and sput out BS without anyone challenging it.

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Despite your ways, I engage...

Why independent? Principles before Party. I feel no need to live under a label, and will not vote just because there is a D after their name. On top of it all, this duopoly we are stuck with needs a serious overhaul.

I do not think you want to hear about anything substantive. Why do you claim empty suit, other than to insult? Both candidates are quite qualified, and have very good ideas. One candidate brings a message of leadership and motivates people to participate. The other has good ideas, but does little to inspire.

I would like to see you post something that would encourage people to vote for Hillary, rather than spend your time insulting people.

Here is my shot: Both candidates are talking about Health Insurance. HRC wants mandatory health insurance, BHO has a release valve for those who do not want mandatory insurance. From a market perspective, by not making insurance 100% mandatory, you do not create a situation where insurance companies are guaranteed a profit, rather you have a large negotiator (the government), and then you have those who can exercise free choice. In order for insurance companies to grab the share of free thinkers, they have to a)compete with the gorilla in the room, b)provide something that people want, rather than force it on them because it is mandatory.

Sorry for the hijack.

Thanks for that Nessy. Hey, you've not insulted me? Please....One word usally uttered in support of Sen. Clinton usually gets thousands sent back his or her way....this last foray is a great illustration. Very republican like I have to admit

The problem, Louisville, is you are obsessed with party.

Did you know that TPM doesn't filter on the basis of party?

Neither should you. But I guess your argument goes something like this: Only Dems can decide not to like Hillary Clinton at this stage.

Two flaws:

a) Dems have held open primaries.

b) TPM is not an election, it's a discussion.

By the way, it would be impossible to determine my party affiliation from this post... though I know you will try.

And "calling people out" doesn't involve endless repeating of the phrase "empty suit".

Why not post a blog of your own with your thoughts? I would really enjoy taking a look at it.

Oh, I've posted before....just finished one a few ago. Your right. I filter through party lenses. I just don't get why you or any independent would get worked up about a Democratic Party process without being a member. I don't give a crap what Republicans do in their process and don't pay attention to their nonsense till the general.

You have no proof I am independent.

PS Yesterday you said I was a Republican.

LisB, traditional Democratic voters will most likely vote Democrat if the nominee was Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck.

I think the observation speaks more to "swing voters". Independents, "Reagan Democrats", Catholics, etc. call them what you will.

If the GE is a close race, I think that it could be an issue.

Don't underestimate the radioactivity of this issue, airwon.

This issue is described as a "third rail" for a reason. It has the potential to irreparably harm Hillary's relationship with some very Democratic Democratic voters.

If Hillary succeeds in exploiting race to get the nomination, she risks losing a significant amount of African American support. As for me, I will withhold my vote for her out of protest because (a) racism is vile and I don't consider exploiting it a "fair" tactic in contests for the Democratic nominee; and (b) I'm a member of the United Church of Christ, and Sen. Clinton's contribution to the damage being done to our church is something I cannot excuse.

laurajordan,

I don't claim to know how the race issue thing is going to play out. And I don't under estimate the potential of AA discontent if for whatever reason Hillary wins the nomination. Hillary understands this as well, which is why she is still courting the AA vote.

But when it comes to electability, it really isn't a straight forward race issue. You can make the argument that Hillary is not electable because no one trust her, or that she's got too much baggage, or she's too divisive, etc.

You can also make the argument that Obama is not electable because Wright will be too damaging to Obama. To say that, is not racist. Its just recognizing and accepting of the the fact that issues of race and patriotism are deep seated emotions that speaks to peoples sense of place and belonging. It affects elections. AA's understand that. Democrats understand that.

By all measure,John Kerry, a war hero, should have destroyed Bush in 2004. But as Lalo once pointed out, Kerry was painted as a blue blooded, unpatriotic, flip flopping, and the worst of all a French speaking wimp. Thats all it took for Bush to keep it close and to steal the election.

I don't know if Obama's character will be assassinated in the same way as Kerry's character was in the GE. But I'm pretty sure that Hillary will use Kerry as one of the models. I just hope that you can see that Hillary's argument is not just "exploiting' race. She's making a legit argument about electablity, which at worst is wrong. In the end the issue might not hurt Obama. But it is not evil for Hillary to make the argument.

You mentioned earlier that the Bai article was not objective. Do you really think that? I think the Bai article is pretty non-partisan. You even use one of his basic assumptions, that when races don't mix, you don't have racial issues. What is it about the article that you find slanted toward Clinton?

Agreed -- I was reading too fast and had an incorrect knee-jerk reaction. My bad.

Well, I wonder a bit how education level plays into the equation. Obama outpolls Clinton for folks with college degrees, she's outpolling him for the "blue collar" workers. Is this due to race or due to the amount of time and number of venues a voter researches to discern the differences among candidates? Is Obama's eloquence a black mark among the non-eloquent? I know that a couple of my blue collar buds that voted for Bush last election knew nothing about what either candidate stood for, voting only on a visceral basis. Perhaps Bill and Hillary are familiar enough to these voters that Hillary receives the nod. I'm not so naive as to dismiss the race angle, though. I was particularly struck by the super white state angle, that race isn't an issue because there is no history of the races mixing. I'm in Wisconsin and I never had a black classmate until college. Race isn't a consideration for me--I'm just thrilled to have voted for someone who is both intelligent and articulate.

"I was particularly struck by the super white state angle, that race isn't an issue because there is no history of the races mixing."

Yeah, it's true, unfortunately. I'm originally from Louisiana, where there is still a LOT of racial tension. You see, there has to be some mixing of blacks and whites for racial tension to be relevant, right? That's why, in Jena, Louisiana, we still have white kids threatening black kids by hanging nooses in schoolyard trees. And the "grown-ups" in authority there--school officials and city council members--regarded the act as a youthful "prank." Lynching was commonplace in the deep South not so long ago. And apparently, in some places, the outrageousness of it has not quite registered in the public consciousness.

Blue Collar voters trust her on Home/Hearth/Security issues. 3 Am ad proved that.

Thanks so much for the posting. Sort of the Rosetta Stone of Clintonian race-baiting--really wraps the whole thing up as starkly as could be. And Sirota frames the whole thing beautifully, if that's the word.

Thanks so much for the posting. Sort of the Rosetta Stone of Clintonian race-baiting--really wraps the whole thing up as starkly as could be. And Sirota frames the whole thing beautifully, if that's the word.

Don't forget BHO insists that he is black (even though we know he really isn't), so what should we call him? We sure want to do the pollitically correct thing here.

HRC is obviously white, so why do we need to call her a white woman?

I am shocked and saddened that every day I come here a new post it put up to purport how "racist" Hillary and her supporters are......I'd find it offensive if it wasn't so pathetic. I'd love to see someone trip off a list of things that Barack Obama has actually proposed to do that is novel and that we've not heard before. How the things he has proposed or the ideas he has will move us forward.

Thanks for the post Mag. Its nice to see. Can you explain why his views are superior to Sen. Clintons?

I've got a better challenge, Louisville. Why not tell us why Hillary's ideas are better than Obama's?

Convince me to change my mind... you have never once tried to do that in a positive way (e.g. tell me why Hillary's views are superior).

Thanks, Louisville.

I'd love to see someone trip off a list of things that Barack Obama has actually proposed to do that is novel and that we've not heard before.
How about this:

Obama: Unity the country. Use the word "we" more than "I" as in "We are the ones, we've been waiting for" and "Yes, we can".

Hillary: Polarize the country. Use the word "I" more than "we" as in "I'm a fighter" and "I never give up".

I know... "just" words, Louisville. And yet, just the other day, a lot of Hillary supporters were very upset about the word "bitch" as in "Life's a bitch".

I guess words matter after all.


Issues CT......Your giving me platitudes. I can't eat and put hope in my car.....Issues!

You have been given links to read about the issues, Louisville. (Mag gave them to you, and you simply responded with a smart-ass remark.) Mag and CT can't help it if you're too lazy or closed-minded to actually read them.

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You continue to be dishonest.

The government cannot and should not be fueling your car nor feeding you (caveat:food assistance can be necessary in certain circumstances) and to run on a platform of handouts is a dead-in-the-water GE strategy.

You ask for examples, and when provided, then you want to know how they are superior to Hillary's ideas.

What is superior? If they are similar, then what do you vote on? Implementation becomes the next decision point. If someone points out the upside of Obama's implementation style, then you revert to asking for examples.

Rinse and repeat.

Nor should I pull a lever for someone who endlessly repeats "I'm a fighter" as her claim to fame.

Did you not hear the Teachers' Union commercial posted on the Election Central site at TPM?

Did you not read my blog yesterday?

Are you not familiar with Obama's record on ethics reform? Or telling the automakers they need to improve the efficiency of their cars?

By the way: saying "we" more than "I" is not a platitude.

With all due respect--you're shocked, shocked that folks are calling the Clintons on their race-baiting? What about you? Do you think Hillary's exploitation of racism is just fine? Why aren't YOU recoiling in loud revulsion at the spectacle of a DEMOCRAT avidly pursuing the most anti-progressive strategy of all?

Thank you. Kind of obvious, isn't it?

I don't think Louisville cares all that much about the Hillary campaign's exploitation of race. Louisville chastises me as a single-issue, "taking my toys and going home" voter for taking a stand against a Democrat who will exploit racial tensions to eke out a scare-victory against another Democrat.

My guess is Louisville is white. It doesn't hurt Louisville, so why should Louisville care? I'm tired of that selfish "I've got mine, fuck the others" mentality. Isn't that what Republicans are notorious for?

Laura, Really now. You've never heard me say "I've got mine fuck the others". Actually the opposite. I am all about making sure we fight and combat poverty, a lack of health care, against the war, increasing education opportunities, affirmative action, set asides for minorites, Using the government to make radical changes in how we live and treat each other, driving wedges straight threw white suburban america so we can start to actually LIVE together rather than live in our enclaves and superficially say we are integrated.....I am for having a solid respectful immigration party and finally admit we have 20 million people here contributing without being noticed or without rights.....Fuck the others? No...that isn't exactly what I am for.

I am an also a party advocate and it upsets me when I see Independents sitting on the outside of our party and taking shots. Sorry, in my mind thats reserved for folks that are part of the party. Old fashioned notion in this day when people think Parties don't matter.....I still happen to believe they do. Good Luck!

Louisville,

Over and over again, you have construed my comments through your own pre-conceived notions and made pronouncements about who I am or why I think certain things. And you've always been wrong.

I just gave you a taste of the treatment you've given me so many times. How do you like it? Myself, I find it incredibly insulting. Does this help you understand? Wanna think about NOT doing it in the future?

Gawd, laurajordan, I do feel your pain!

Thank you. I promised myself (and Louisville) on a previous thread that I wouldn't engage with him/her/it anymore. I should have kept my word--I should have simply ignored it. S/he makes stubbornly dim-witted, baseless assumptions about people and then proceeds to insult them with the mental charicatures she draws. I'm starting the believe s/he truly is a simpleton who has no idea how offensive s/he is.

And -- I think s/he really does consider herself a real, "good" Democrat. That's why those half-baked, stubbornly-ignorant-but-righteously-self-assured statements really push my buttons. She won't engage in real debate, just Hillary campaign tropes like "Issues CT......Your [sic] giving me platitudes. I can't eat and put hope in my car.....Issues!" and other shallow, two-dimensional, cartoonish bullshit like the tired "empty suit" routine.

The stubborn, simple-minded certainty sort of reminds me of the temperament and personality of....well....George Bush. Aaaaccckkkk!

Obviously I don't think she is doing what you say she is doing. You seriously are accusing Hillary Clinton of being a racist? Bill a racist?

You haven't done any serious reading on the candidates, have you? I mean, beyond Taylor Marsh or the pro-Hillary/anti-Obama websites?

Your "empty suit" crap betrays you.

I said Bill and Hillary are exploiting racial tension to damage a viable Democratic competitor. One wouldn't have to believe they are racist to see that they are exploiting the situation.

And by the way, the damage they are contributing to my church--NEEDLESSLY--by continuing to fan the flames on this Rev. Wright issue (see my previous comment), gives me yet another very personal, PRINCIPLED reason to express my protest by not voting for Hillary.

Sorry, I will not apologize for the Wright statements and what it might be doing to your church. Those types of things do not belong in any pulpit anywhere....especially if there are children in the audience. Thats just simply Wrong.

Nice that you can be so self-assured and righteous in your position, no matter what harm it does to the only truly progressive, liberal Christian church.

Question: how much do you really know about African American history, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement? How much reading have you done on the subject. I have the feeling you don't have all the information you need to do a thorough and fair evaluation of Rev. Wright and the United Church of Christ.

But maybe you don't need to do any more thinking on the subject to conclude, "oh well. That's just too bad. I've decided their church just shouldn't tolerate that. Period."

Nice.

What I find anti-progressive, is the self serving denial in old school Democrats that race is an issue in America.

I'll take that one if its shot at me. Race is an issue in America but I don't think its much of an issue in the democratic party. No real way for me to prove it but by having you look at who is in this party. Look around....Think you can admit I am right.

You are wrong, Louisville.

The Dems have had a dismal record with race for over a century.

Starts in 1860's. which is one of the reasons, Abraham Lincoln won the 1860 election.

Continues during reconstruction and after -- it was the Dixiecrats that controlled the Dem party as a block for years. Ever hear of Richard Russell? Strom Thurmond? J. William Fulbright?

Who exactly did you think walked out of the 1948 Dem Convention when Humphrey put in a Civil Rights Plank?

Who do you think filibustered against the Civil Rights act of 1957? Or 1964?

Just as only Nixon, a Republican, could go to China, only could Johnson, a Democrat, get Civil Rights legislation through this Southern block.

And, even he knew that it would cost the Democrats the South for a generation. Why? Because Southern Democrats were clearly racist.

Let's take the flip side:

Clarence Thomas is a Republican.

Colin Powell is also.

As is Condi Rice.

See? Having AA in your party doesn't imply anything.

Saying that there somehow there are no racists in the Dem Party is simpleminded.

Now... I'm still waiting for your blog.

actually it wasn't a shot at you. the sentence makes no sense as i look at it now. it was meant for jcd.

that I think is anti progressive for people to deny that the issue of race exist in the democratic party. hope that makes sense

Yes, yes. This guy has written the same bullshit before. Sean Wilentz has a cozy relationship with the Clintons. This isn't the first time he has written an it-wasn't-the-Clintons-who-started-this-Obama-did piece. So apparently, according to Wilentz, all of us who have heard the dog whistle or have detected race-baiting from the Clintons have been manipulated by the cunning and devious (yet somehow, according to Wilentz in earlier editorials, too inexperienced and naive to stand up to the Republican attack machine) Obama.

Riiiiight.

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1) Bill Shaheen and Cocaine - Why would one ponder about the implications of cocaine in the GE after our favorite Coke Head GWB? Especially after Obama had admitted the use and used it as an allegory as to how we all make mistakes and use those mistakes to grow from them?

2) JJJr (a regular headache no doubt) and Katrina - His point was that Hillary was crying about losing, but never shed a tear for those who suffered in Katrina, and many people call those alligator tears. Indeed this has room for the race card title, and JJJr is the biggest problem Obama has in this regard.

3) Oddly left out was Shuck-an-Jive Cuomo, In-da-hood Johnson, and Affirmative-Action Geraldine - perhaps for another article?

Other than that - whistle politics is a masterful art. It is deniable by its very nature. Some examples are over reaction, hyped by an excitable media, others are text-book examples. It will be interesting to see it in the GE.

For all you Clinton supporters - you would have cried bloody murder in the GE when the Republicans brought out the hordes of dog-whistle attacks, so all your complaining now is disingenuous.

let me sneak in here,

elliotness, please reread the bai article if you get a chance. the phrase is not an insult. it speaks to the enduring effect of obama's message.

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Louisville blog his/her own thoughts and not just casting insults about?

Novel.

Your going to read what I write through the lense you see me as. Simple enough. I know that. I wrote a reply to Laura as to what I believe. You obviously didn't read it or didn't care to. Thats fine too. But given the amount of crap you've thrown my way over the past two weeks Nessy I find it galling your calling me out.

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What do they say about goose and gander? You throw plenty out to not expect it in return.

In all fairness, I did seek out your blog and you are much more civil on your own turf.

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I say it further down the line: presentation.

And I say it somewhere else - I am willing to see you for who you are when you take a more civil tone.

I find it most interesting that the line of inclusiveness and idealism and respect you claim to foster in your political life, is very much absent on these boards. In fact, you are hardly an advertisement for the Dem party -- it seems that you don't want people except Dems to discuss Dem candidates. Don't you know that the Dems have had open primaries in many states?

Laurajordan has been an even-keeled poster and put content on these boards. I have yet to see you write something involved and thoughtful.

Mostly you just lash out 1 or 2 lines to anyone who disagrees with you.

Again: I challenge you: why not sit down and type out a 4-5 paragraph blog with some of your thoughts? Show me where *you* stand on the issues.

Open primaries much to my chagrin.

Mostly you just lash out 1 or 2 lines to anyone who disagrees with you.
Open primaries much to my chagrin.

Dude, are you trying to be a self-parody? I'm just trying to figure out whether you're just a fool or if you're really some kind of Kaufmanesque genius.

I've pounded out plenty of paragraphs. Too many probably. You, Ct, do not lash out?

I've been pretty consistent in my views. Maybe gotten a little heated with what I see as piling on Mrs. Clinton and making fun of her, which seems to be common fair here.

I feel its pretty obvious that most everyone here would rather not have to deal with other views or anyone that might actually challenge what they are saying. Its cool. If that is you Ct just say so man I will leave it be.

I keep asking you to discuss your views and issues. And do it with *specifics*.

I've not heard anything from you but junk content. And in this thread, others have said the same.

So, yet again, please write a blog on your views.

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Another way to look at it might be to analyze your presentation style.

As for people not looking for disagreement - a common problem. I think that TPM leaves open room for additional ideas, but the medium of text makes it more difficult to interpret nuances that would be picked up in verbal/physical communication.

So again - presentation is everything here.

anyway, its late you can return to beating me up later today.

The New York Senator’s last-ditch efforts to win the Democratic nomination could rely on the “Race Chasm”...

Too fucking rich. Obama's vaunted {{{insurmountable/overwhelming/nomination-inevitable}}} lead is built on the “Race Chasm". He swept the south, where we will not win a state in 2008, like Sherman's march to the sea. His delegate lead is built upon delegates he won in GA, SC, AL, MS, etc because of a primary race chasm. When we lose each of those states in Nov, maybe David can fondly recall how well Obama did in each of them in early 2008 and ask himself "Who knew we would lose those states in Nov?"

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You operate under two odd assumptions:

1) The primary is equal to the GE - whereas those who voted for one candidate within the same party will not vote for for the winner of the nomination in said party.

While this may hold true for independents and crossovers, it generally should not hold true for "party voters"

2) That the Democrats in those states the Democratic Party will "lose" in November should not be allowed to have a say in the nomination.

That just sounds like a good way to make sure that those states never vote Dem.

Go Figure.

You don't understand Sirota's piece, do you?

Nobody expects any Democrat to win those states. The "Southern Strategy" has been successful for decades because it exploits racial tensions. Everybody knows that. Come on now, Goober!

No, the piece calls attention to something someone from the South (like me) probably instinctively knows: it's not simply about white voters or black voters and seeing racial correlations in voting. It's about states where racial tensions exist. He points out that where there few African Americans, racial tensions are non-existent, so "race" is not an issue for voters. Where there is enough "mixing" of races and where there are racial tensions, "race" is an issue for voters, thereby providing politicians the opportunity to exploit it.

Now, it's obvious that Southern states provide this kind of political opportunity. But Sirota is pointing out that there are some "blue" and "swing" states where this racial "mix" provides the same kind of political opportunity. And it is becoming apparent that the Clinton campaign not only understands this, but intends to exploit this to its full advantage.

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I'm sorry, but I think the linked article is a bunch of junk. Hillary answered a direct question about Rev. Wright, she hasn't hammered the issue. The media has been the ones to focus so much on Rev. Wright and they're the ones who've been focused on race since New Hampshire (Obama didn't win because the people of NH are secretly racists)

I could go point-by-point through the piece, but I'd say that if they were any "villains", it'd be the media and the Clinton campaign has probably interjected race, much less than the Obama campaign.

And, it's not Hillary's fault that Pennsylvania has never elected an African-American statewide and that the Lexington (KY) newspaper apologized in '04 for ignoring the Civil Rights Movement and failing to report on the subject at the time.

I'm just glad that with Hillary still in the race, the Democrats of those two states have a conduit through which they can express their excitement.

Excellent post. Great article, and with numbers to back it up.

It seems absurd to me to say or imply that Hillary's supporters are somehow racist because they are white and she is white. White voters are more divided between Hillary and Obama, while Obama has the support of 80% to 90% of blacks.

You miss the point. There are Clinton supporters who would never vote for a black. The reverse is not true.

Thank you for posting this link here.
I've been posting and e-mailing this link, along with the link to the radio interviews with Jay Marvin on the subject for a few days now.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KKZN-AM/Monday%203-31%20Hour%203.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=talk&SITE_ID=650&STATION_ID=KKZN-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Jay_Marvin&PCAST_CAT=Spoken_Word&PCAST_TITLE=THE_JAY_MARVIN_SHOW

Although the Sirota article and graph speak for themselves to everyone with a working conscience and calculator, I'll just add this for consideration.

The article, and the thinking behind it are not BS, or garbage.
People have been asking for months, especially since South Carolina, why African American voters "abandoned" Hillary Clinton's campaign.
Even though African American voters have been among the most loyal "Clinton supporters" for two decades, most pundits chalked it up to "a black thing," based entirely on Obama's race.

May I suggest, that black voters began to notice some very familiar and unsettling phrases coming from Clinton surrogates long before most white voters began to admit that something may be amiss with the not-so-careful- wordings of the usually careful Bill Clinton. From Rendell's often ignored "Pennsylvania not ready to vote for a black president" (paraphrased), to Ferraro's never-quite-disavoyed bigoted fumble, to the Texas Latino organizer (I forget her name)who explained on tape why Latino voters won't vote for black candidates, black folks got it. After all, African American voters recognize the "Southern Strategy," no matter who is using it, or whether they have been claiming to be on your side, and in your corner for years and years and years.

Clinton's problem has simply been how to effectively advance her divisive, race-based campaign without looking racist herself.
Ask yourself what Clinton means by "Obama is unelectable," and why she can't spell it out exactly.

Ask yourself what Clinton means by "buyers' remorse." Basically, that is the new more-coded name for "white backlash." Bascally, what they have been trying to point out and promote is that the more black-skinned Americans vote for Obama, the less blue-collar Americans will.

I have no problem with Senator Clinton pointing out unpleasant truths about our nation. In fact had she treated us as adults and said "considering the realities of our time, it may be difficult for Obama to win the presidency considering that many of the black voters he has depended on to get this far in the Democratic race, (where most Black voters are anyway, will very likely be out-numbered) by "conservatives" come November.

Black folks have known and considered this from the beginning of Obama's campaign. It was impossible not to. However, instead of appealing to the pragmatism and intelligence of voters black, and white alike, they took the calculation that with the right words by the right people in the right places, it would be a whole lot easier to produce more new bigots than new black voters by Denver, or November.

Hillary Clinton is stuck with the choices she has made regarding to race politics, especially those made after her string of losses in February.

Anyway, wrapping this up, I just want to add that the other day TPM posted a YouTube link with Donna Brazile explaining the credentials committe.
If you watched it, and waited until the clip menu came up, the following Fox interview with Mark Halperin came closest to explaining the real Clinton campaign strategy.....listen to the part referring what Clinton cannot say in polite company.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ3Gyum4434

Like I said, I have no problem with unpleasant truths, and Obama may be unelectable because of his race. However, I do have a problem with the Clintons fanning the flames of bigotry and race fear; and waiting for them to engulf Obama to such a point that she can crash through the door in a flame-proof pants-suit shouting "See, I told you so, there is just too much racism in our great nation for Obama to be elected, right now....but maybe in eight years."

Some people think of their identity more as skin color, others relate more to what's between their legs. Alice Walker's orientation is obviously skin color. If it weren't, she'd realize that we are still, historically speaking, in a political arena where women -- who make up a MAJORITY of the population -- are scandalously UNDER-REPRESENTED. How many black mayors are there in towns that have more whites that blacks? And how many women are mayors in towns that have more men than women? ZERO, Alice, get it? Now, act on it!
As a writer and a woman, Walker should know that as soon as Hillary Clinton is referred to as a woman, she's in a minority, a minority which gots its suffrage AFTER the black man did.
Obama's candidacy has re-injected racism because so many Afro-American women like Walker voted with their skins. The numbers in Mississippi were eloquent.
But -- before closing -- I'd like to quote a black woman in Mississippi who was interviewed on CNN on March 5th. She had just voted Clinton and she had this to say:

"She implement change. She stands by her words. She speak it. She do what she say. She bring it home."

"She implement change. She stands by her words. She speak it. She do what she say. She bring it home."

More proof we need Obama's reforms in education.

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How many black mayors are there in towns that have more whites that blacks? And how many women are mayors in towns that have more men than women? ZERO, Alice, get it? Now, act on it!

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Could you tell me how many US cities have populations where males outnumber females?
I know Baltimore is something like 49% male and 51% female. An African-American female triumverate of Mayor, President of the City Council, and City Comptroller was just elected. The State's Attorney for Baltimore City is also female.

How many US cities fit your gender criteria?


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