Ivy League Hausfrau's Blog | Update: Statement from John Lott about mother-in-law's death in Sweden »

Gun Advocate John Lott's Kid Questions Obama at Town Hall Meeting


I attended Obama's Town Hall meeting last week at Strath Haven High School in Wallingford, Pa. As one expects at these kinds of campaign events, most of the questions were friendly, but Obama got a somewhat hostile question from a red-headed student who failed to identify himself but asked Obama if he was advocating a government-run healthcare system like they have in Europe. The teen said his grandmother had died in Sweden while waiting for treatment. 

 

It turns out the kid, Roger Lott, is the son of conservative economist John R. Lott Jr., the author of Freedomnomics and The Bias Against Guns. 

 

John Lott proudly mentions the back-and-forth on his blog:

 

Barack Obama recently gave a talk at my son Roger's high school . . . You might note that Roger obviously has quite a reputation there at the school. There is quite the ruckus as soon as it is clear that he is the one who is about to ask the next question.

 

In another post on his blog, Lott says he knows Obama from their years at the University of Chicago Law School. I wonder if Obama remembers him!

And I'd also be curious to learn more details about Lott's mother or mother-in-law's situation. 

Anybody TPM Muckrakers care to do some fact-checking???


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I think this is a working link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKsSBh3KfwQ

And here is (I think!) a working link to the Mother Jones article on John Lott:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/10/we_590_01.html


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Since we know who the kid is, did anyone vet the story about his grandmother? I'd give it less than a 50/50 chance to be true.

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At the link above ("John Lott proudly mentions...") Someone asked about it in one of the comments, but there is no response to it. I have serious doubts about the story.

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From the upper-right of his blog:

Born in Detroit, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents in Miami, Florida before moving to Miami at the end of junior high.

So, I think we can rule out his mother as being the boy's grandmother that died in Sweden. Either it was his wife's mother, or it was a complete fabrication.

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As for the wife, her name is Gertrud Fremling. I haven't found anything about her parents yet. All I know about her so far is that she earned her Ph.D. at UCLA.

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It's intersting how "conservatives" are always so concerned with the Constitution, and constantly waving their "bible" The Federalist (even though they should be waving anti-Federalist/"state's rights" papers), yet never mention the legal authority (which doesn't inlcude The Federalistas concerns the Second Amendment: the debates of the first Congress under the newly-ratified Constitution.

Actually, it isn't a mystery why they don't mention those debates, as they make conclusively clear that the Second Amendment has nothing whatever to do with "individual" anything. This is the first draft of that which became the Second, as written by James Madison:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well regulated, and well armed militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

("People" is plural, as it is also in "We the people". "Person" is individual, and is tied directly to INVOLUNTARY MILITARY SERVICE. As well, and obviously, that posited individual right would have afforded the individual eligible thereunder the right NOT to bear arms.)

It is also the fact that the Second Amendment, which does have within its scope the public institution militia, does not "protect" anything within its scope from the rule of law -- regulation -- as evidenced by the fact that the "Bill of Rights," and the Second Amendment, were ratified on 12/15/1791, and the "Militia Act," regulating the militia, was enacted by Congress on 5/8/1792.

The lying NRA -- and the "conservatives" who spout the NRA's anti-Constitutional lie -- won't tell you those basic and easily verified facts. I just did.

JNagarya, you comment on the use of "the people" in the Second Amendment as implying only a collective right, not an individual one. Does that mean that when the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law ... or the right of the people peaceably to assemble..." or the Fourth Amendment says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." that they are also referring to a collective right, not an individual one?

It is also the fact that the Second Amendment, which does have within its scope the public institution militia, does not "protect" anything within its scope from the rule of law -- regulation -- as evidenced by the fact that the "Bill of Rights," and the Second Amendment, were ratified on 12/15/1791, and the "Militia Act," regulating the militia, was enacted by Congress on 5/8/1792.

Does that not suggest that the purpose of the Second Amendment is not to include within its scope the public institution of the militia, but rather it simply mentions the interests of the militia in the process of guaranteeing an individual right?

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well regulated, and well armed militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

A militia is the best security of a free nation because state militias prevent the need for a standing national army. National standing armies are the source of almost all dictatorships, because a) they get bored and then they get interested in politics, and b) leaders get bored and then they realize "hey! I have a bunch of armed men I can use to push people around!"

The best way to ensure a free nation is to eliminate a national standing military (distinct from a national military raised for the purpose of explicit military engagements).

Consequently, since at the time militias were essentially conscripted or volunteer individuals who brought their own guns, the right of individuals to bear arms could not be infringed.

Note, also, that 220 years ago, the phrase "well-regulated" meant well-trained and well-supplied, not regulated by law.

Note that later in his Federalist passages, Madison makes the explicit argument that the individual right to bear arms is not explicitly tied to military service. It is simply the case that an individual right is also necessary in order to ensure the viability of state militias, which are necessary for the reasons outlined above.

Lots of grandmothers and grandfathers die here while undergoing treatment or after they have had treatment.

This may come as a surprise to many, but old people tend to die, and they never tend to do it at convenient times or on some death schedule.

On the other hand, four thousand young Americans died in Iraq, while waiting to just return home.

On the guns issue: more American children under the age of 15 are dying every year, from handgun violence,than Grandmothers die in Europe each year while waiting for Medical treatment.

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I kinda think that there aren't too many children dying from hand-guns in Sweden either (or in wars for that matter!) What a country to pick! Their health care system is close to perfect! Maybe Granny slipped on a banana peel while walking into the doctor's office to get her free preventive, or therapeutic care.

I'm with Ben. Let's find out what we can. Maybe she couldn't get up $100 and so she died -- oops! wrong story!

I was at that event, and when the kid first made the statement about his grandmother, I, too, was skeptical. (Especially since he never identified himself--something that had been requested of all those asking questions.) But when Obama came back and asked the kid which country his grandmother had died in, there seemed to be a delay before he answered "Sweden."

It seems unlikely, however, that his dad, a highly-credentialed professor at the University of Maryland, would promote the story if it's untrue (although it sounds like his veracity has been questioned in the past: See this entry in his Wikipedia profile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_lott#Controversy).

Strath Haven High School is in the Wallingford-Swarthmore (the home of Swarthmore College) School District and is known to be very liberal. That's probably why his classmates all groaned when Obama called on Roger Lott. And it sounds like he was wearing a Ron Paul t-shirt, although I couldn't see it from my vantage point. I thought it was great that Obama was taking questions from an audience that had not been screened ahead of time.

Interesting tidbit: John Lott filed suit against Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner for defamation when they claimed in their bestseller Freakonomics that Lott's research results had never been replicated anywhere else in academia.

Can one of you excellent TPM muckrakers check out the story? On face value it just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. I was expecting one of the local reporters to follow up and check on the kid's claims but I haven't seen it if somebody has.


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There are people in the US -- which is much closer to the US than is Sweden --- who can't get any medical treatment -- health care in general -- in the US. And die as result. But death -- of others -- is preferable to violating the precious bodily fluids of the current "conservative" idiotology, which is easily summed up, in two words:

"Screw you."

I'm skeptical about the grandmother story, too, unless someone can substantiate it.

Meanwhile, here in this country, uninsured people of all ages sometimes die because (unless they're old enough for Medicare, destitute enough for Medicaid, pregnant or just lucky enough to find charity) they can't get health care until it's an emergency. But for those who get cancer or another progressive or preventable illness -- by the time it's an emergency, it's often too late.

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Speaking of Medicare, why exactly was John Lott's grandma waiting for care in Sweden? Is he suggesting that she would have patriotically forgone her government funded Medicare insurance had she been a U.S. citizen?

Every year in the USA, more than three times as many people die from medical mistakes and malpractice than from gunshot wounds.

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Could you give a citation for that nutty-sounding statistic? Mistakes happen, and often, but most people don't die even if there is malpractice. Where did you get that tid-bit?

It looks like it's John Lott's wife, Gertrud Fremling, who grew up in Sweden, so I think we can safely assume the "deceased grandmother" is her mom, not John's.

From FORBES:


Guns, Drugs And Insider Trading
Peter Brimelow, 09.18.00

JOHN LOTT HAS FEW EQUALS AS A PERCEPTIVE ANALYST of controversial public policy issues," says Nobel laureate Milton Friedman. "Controversial" is putting it mildly. The tall, gangling Lott, 42, a senior research scholar at Yale Law School, specializes in applying economic analysis to such matters as why governments provide education (indoctrination, concludes Lott); why campaign contributions are increasing (higher government spending); and whether enfranchising women means bigger government (yes; see chart).

FORBES interviewed him in his Swarthmore, Pa. home, where his wife, Gertrud Fremling, an economist born and raised in Sweden, home-schools their four sons. Ironically, she tried banning toy guns, but the boys used dolls as substitute weapons. We began by asking about his latest thunderbolt: More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, 2000) . . .


http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2000/0918/6608122a_print.html

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O that would be big fat Liar John Lott, who Lied about his book.


Yes, John Lott is a world class Liar and sounds like he's bred a little Repug monster.

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I thought I posted a comment here - we are talking about john Lott the World Class Liar who lied totally about his book - right?

What makes anyone think the apple falls far from the tree?

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Man, that comment took a record time to post and I'm sorry I turned around and did it again.

Sometimes I think I must have dreamed posting a comment because it takes so damn long before they show up.

sorry.

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John Lott is an excellent man and a wonderful father. He also likes a little nookie on the side (research that one!) from very young women which proves he's a manly man. His books are the very best and he's NOT a plagiarist like everyone says so just shut up! He's got great guns!

All my love to John!
Mary Rosh

(do I need to explain who Mary Rosh is?)

Yes, but thank you for reminding us of what a small, small world it is, indeed!

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28771.html

Spawn of Sock Puppet Speaks!

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This thread reminds me of all the broadcast emails I get from my inbred extended family about the evils of socialized medicine.

Thankfully, a winning campaign trumps whatever limp-wristed scorn I alone can muster by way of response, and we will move on because we've finally got a candidate whose GE victory is going to help put so much of this BS to rest.

No one who has heard Obama's healthcare plan
can really complain or criticize it.
No one has heard Obama's healthcare plan.

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Hey, Pat. Why would you say this?

"No one has heard Obama's healthcare plan."

If you're curious, why haven't you looked it up? Do you expect him to drop by your house and go over it with you?

I'll save you some time, all you have to do is follow the link. It is PDF:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf

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I wonder if Lott would accept a student's claim a computer crash 'ate my homework as' he claimed a computer did to his phony gun survey. If he is at AEI it is reasonable to be skeptical of any thing that comes out of there. And there is no doubt he set his kid up to question Barack. As bad as the economy is in Pa. I'm sure they wish there was health care for all no matter whose mother died in any country with universal health care. hell Cuba's infant mortality rate is higher only because of pre-natal care.
P.S. I get you ,gonzone.

I'm sure you meant that Cuba's infant mortality rate is lower than that of the US. According to the WHO stats for 2001-2005, here, http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/wpp2006/WPP2006_Highlights_rev.pdf, at Table A-18,
America has low infant mortality -- not as low as that of Western European countries, Canada, Oz and NZ (or South Korea or Singapore for that matter) that have some kind of public health care, but comparable to the most prosperous of the emerging democracies in Eastern Europe. Here are a few examples, unscientifically cherry-picked, from some of the countries with low infant mortality rates:

United States: 6.8 infant deaths per 1,000 live births
Australia: 4.8
Austria: 4.6
Brunei: 6.1
Canada: 5.1
Croatia: 6.9
Cuba: 6.1
Estonia: 7.4
France: 4.4
Malta: 6.9
Martinique: 7.0
Netherlands: 6.0
Republic of (South) Korea: 4.7
Poland: 7.2
Singapore 3.0
Slovenia: 5.3
Sweden: 3.3
Switzerland: 4.4
United Kingdom: 5.2

Lott has provided a brief explanation of the grandmother's death (the son's maternal grandmother) in a way that supports his son's version of the event. http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/04/roger-lott-versus-obama.html#linkshttp://

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Lott has provided a brief explanation of the grandmother's death (the son's maternal grandmother) in a way that supports his son's version of the event

Let me tell you something - John Lott is a proven liar and anything that comes associated with him comes to me with that on them right at the threshold.

I wouldn't believe anything John Lott said. If he was standing in front of me with flames shooting off of him, I might not even believe him if he told me he was on fire.

John Lott is a public, world class A number 1 LIAR.

Wow, I think John Lott is craving a little attention from Barack Obama. He has a new opinion piece on FOXNews.com called, "Obama and Guns: Two Different Views."

This time Lott recounts an entire conversation with Obama verbatim:

"In fact, I knew Obama during the mid-1990s, and his answers to IVI’s question on guns fit well with the Obama that I knew. Indeed, the first time I introduced myself to him he said 'Oh, you are the gun guy.'

"I responded 'Yes, I guess so.' He simply responded that 'I don’t believe that people should be able to own guns.'

"When I said it might be fun to talk about the question sometime and about his support of the city of Chicago’s lawsuit against the gun makers, he simply grimaced and turned away, ending the conversation."


Full story here: http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,347690,00.html

I believe that Pat's point is that the U.S. literacy rates are too low for anyone to be able to "read" a health care plan. As a result, no one has read the document you link on Obama's website. This is how we wind up with people seriously making comparisons between Obama's plan and Swedish-style universal health care.

The word that comes to mind in describing John Lott seems to be "unsubstantiated."

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e "unsubstantiated.

Not hardly. It's quite substantiated that he's plagiarist and a liar.

"I responded “Yes, I guess so.” He simply responded that “I don’t believe that people should be able to own guns.”"

LOL.

Fox prints this shit?

Surely, that doesn't surprise you!

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Ivy League Hausfrau

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