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NYT's Damaging Lie About Clinton


Hillary Clinton told one of the most heart-rending stories:  

A pregnant woman lost her baby, and then she died - all because a hospital refused to provide early treatment unless she forked up $100.

Then came the false claim that the story was not true.

The NYT has been bashing Clinton mercilessly since Obama's Wright debacle.  As if demonizing Clinton would take attention away from yet another of Obama's "boneheaded" moves, and level the playing field. 

This past Saturday, the NYT outdid itself.  They trounced Clinton with 4 hit pieces.  While Obama got a warm, fuzzy, "stumping in PA" article.

One of the articles repeated the claims that the hospital story was false. 

The article by Deborah Sontag is prominently positioned at the right of the page.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/politics/05woman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The Washington Post researched the claim, and reported that Clinton had told the truth.  

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/04/07/clinton_told_true_tale_of_woe.html

And here is a You Tube video of Deputy Sheriff Holman telling the story to Clinton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wqpEt_CdBk&e

I assumed that the NYT would act immediately to do the right thing.

To rectify the harm done to the Clinton campaign by by their damaging article.  That Clinton is not a birdbrain running around PA making up crap.

Today, I fully expected to see a high visibility piece stating that Clinton had told the truth.

That article did not appear.

Apparently, misinforming their readers is OK when it comes to the Clintons.


74 Comments

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Quoted from WashPost:

"I remember listening to a story about a young woman in a small town along the Ohio River, in Meigs County, who worked in a pizza parlor"...
"She got pregnant, she started having problems. There's no hospital left in Meigs County, so she had to go to a neighboring county. She showed up, and the hospital said, 'You know, you've got to give us $100 before we can see you.' She didn't have $100," Clinton said.
"So the young woman went back home," she continued. "The next time she went back, she was in an ambulance. It turned out she lost the baby. She was airlifted to Columbus."


I do think you're right, and the NYT should follow up on the story and immediately correct any mistakes it has printed. Let's be frank - the NYT is far from an ideal news outlet, no?

However, reading the story above, as is, leaves me with the feeling that it is false by omission. Nowhere does Senator Clinton mention the woman had health care, or that she was under the treatment of a licensed obstetrician at a different hospital. Rather, she paints a picture of a young woman who did not and could not get proper health care. This is incorrect, in this case.

Giving Senator Clinton the benefit of the doubt, it is possible she was simply repeating the story, she and her staff did not bother to check its veracity for whatever reason, and her only fault is simply the spread of misinformation - nothing more ominous like knowingly casting falsehoods.

However, after Bosnia and other similar incidents, I have no way of knowing with certainty. There are definitive instances of Senator Clinton crafting high-profile lies in the past (as nearly all politicians do), and this could very well be another. Omission, misinformation or lie - we currently have no way of knowing for certain. It could be damaging to her campaign if the NYT investigated further - what if it was discovered she had direct knowledge the woman was, in fact, under medical care. Would this then become another incident of "misspeaking"?

Sorry, but your own post contains factual errors.

For example, according to WAPO:
"At the time she went into debt to that hospital, Casto said, Bechtel was uninsured, though she later obtained health insurance and was insured at the time of her death."

I will stop there and want to say one thing:

Neither You, Clinton, Me or anyone else talks out of a pristine, sterile testube. Because we are organic beasts, not robots.

In the zeal to grab Clinton on micro errors, you don't understand.

Clinton got the BIG PICTURE.

This woman and her baby died.

They died because she did not have the $100 required by the hospital to treat her.

This woman would be alive, holding her child this very minute
if we had a decent healthcare system in this country.

DOES THIS PENETRATE???

This morning I walked out of our house and on the sidewalk was a dead sparrow. It was perfect. It should not have been dead. It's little eyelids were down.

This must sound awfully hokey. There is no way of conveying the feeling I had with words.

That is when it hit me in the solar plexis. I had been thinking about this poor lost soul of a mother, and this tiny bird hit it home to me.

Do you understand? Clinton is not a "manipulator." She is a 60 year old millionaire who should be enjoying life and cruising around the world with her husband.

Clinton wants. She REALLY wants to get a decent health plan implemented.

Why am I so impassioned about getting her elected?

I have a 32 year old kid who chain smokes, thanks to lethal Joe Camel advertising directed at little kids years ago.
And HE HAS NO HEALTH INSURANCE.

And intelligent people like Paul Krugman tell us that Obama's health plan is Republican bullshit.
And Clinton got it right.

So let's go after some Obama micro goofs now. I'll just bet he has one or two.

And lay off Clinton for a while, how about it?


I hate to say this, but attacks don't stick unless there's a grain of truth in the audience's mind. If people think Clinton's a liar, it won't be just because of this story. Rather, it's something that's built up since her Bosnia claims. NYT definitely needs to get the story right and put it in big letters for all to see, but it probably won't change the narrative very much in the end.

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This is the same tactic used on Al Gore.

I'm sorry - could you clarify what you're referring to?

Here is the story in its entirety as told by the patient's aunt.


Clinton Told True Tale of Woe, Says Kin
By Anne E. Kornblut
The aunt of a young pregnant woman who died after a hospital told her she needed to pay $100 up front for care said in an interview on Monday that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has been telling the story accurately on the campaign trail -- following claims by a different Ohio hospital that it did not turn the patient away.

For weeks, Clinton repeated an anecdote she heard in Ohio on Feb. 28 involving a young woman who lost her baby and later died because she lacked health insurance and did not have $100 to gain access to a nearby hospital.

But over the weekend, Clinton came under fire when officials at O'Bleness Memorial Hospital, after reading about her remarks, demanded that she stop recounting it because the patient, Trina Bechtel, was admitted there and did have insurance.

That part, it turns out, is true. But so is Clinton's claim that Bechtel did not get care at another hospital that wanted a $100 pre-payment before seeing her, according to the young woman's aunt, Lisa Casto. "It's a true story," said Casto, 53.

Casto added some details that were not part -- or differed from -- the Clinton anecdote: She said her niece had previously been in debt to a local hospital that later sent her a letter informing her that she could only be treated there in the future if she gave them a $100 deposit. At the time she went into debt to that hospital, Casto said, Bechtel was uninsured, though she later obtained health insurance and was insured at the time of her death.

Casto said she did not want to give the name of the offending hospital because the flood of calls over the incident has overwhelmed her and Meigs County deputy sheriff Bryan Holman, a friend of hers who retold the story to Clinton when she campaigned in southern Ohio.

But court records show that Bechtel had a civil judgment against her by the Holzer Hospital Foundation for the amount of $4,426, entered in 2002, which was repaid in 2005. A call to an official at Holzer Medical Center, which is run by the foundation, in Ohio was not immediately returned.

Casto said her niece, who suffered from preeclampsia during her pregnancy, did not seek care at the first hospital she when she fell ill because she knew she did not have the $100 out-of-pocket she believed she would need to be seen. Instead, she went to O'Bleness Memorial Hospital, where her baby was stillborn. Bechtel was later flown to Columbus and died there. She was 35.

Casto said she has been stunned by the amount of negative attention her niece's story generated, and that she was sorry it had hurt the Clinton campaign. She was, and is, she said, a supporter. "Did I vote for Hillary?" she said. "You'd better bet I did."


Is there really any need to state that O'Bleness interjected itself into the story needlessly?

Is there really any reason to hope that the Obama supporters on this blog will admit that, in its basic form, the story HRC has been telling in her speeches is true and that all their attacks on her were unjustified? I won't hold my breath waiting.

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If you are looking for apologies, I think the comment section is a bad place to start.

You are correct - HRC did not lie. Nor did she fully vet the story.

Therein lies the major issue.

These are the missteps that hurt a campaign and bleed the candidate to death. Seasoned politicians should know this.

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And do you think TPM is going to correct their egregious error? "Partly vindicated"?

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Is there really any need to state that O'Bleness interjected itself into the story needlessly?

No, because they didn't. They had been identified as the hospital where Ms. Bechtel had her stillborn baby. Since Hillary had indicated that this was the same facility that had previously turned her away, they were entitled to correct this slander.

Look, Hillary's running for the most powerful position in the world. Is it too much to ask that she base her positions on actual facts rather than FOAF stories? Surely it can't be that hard to find a health care horror story where she could get all of the facts correct. Telling little stories that might or might not be true is the sort of thing that Reagan did.

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Yes, that's it exactly (the expectation that these sorts of stories be vetted by the candidates thoroughly before they start repeating them). Because now, whatever the truth of the story, and whoever gets elected, the gray areas of this story will ultimately make any healthcare bill just a little harder to pass. What do you want to bet that opponents will point to it in an attempt to discredit the ideas behind it? And the sad thing is that there are so many absolutely unambiguous stories that could have been mentioned instead.

It does make one question whether Clinton really has the experience that she claims, when there seem to be so many of these little problems. Today on the Dan Abrams program, there were several emails that he read that pointed out that Clinton's story of throwing her bookbag across her dorm room upon hearing of the MLK assassination were suspect too, since in 1968, people didn't use bookbags!

Al Gore seemed to have these little memory problems when he was a candidate.
Thank GOD the media pointed them out so that we could get George W. Bush.
.

I have generally steered away from "Blame the Media" arguments. They have an inherent odor of tactical calculation, or worse - whining.

However, there are exceptions to every rule. As in so many other things, the Clintons are that exception. The only public figure I can directly recall being similarly treated is Nixon - and he at least had the excuse of being as openly and directly hostile to most of the media of his day as they were to him.

Why does this pathology exist? A few speculations:

(1)Using the Nixon template with Bill Clinton, we have 2 imperfect personalities with truly brilliant intellectual and policy gifts: Men who (whatever their faults) knew their business cold, and actually made important things HAPPEN. Men who didn't much need the media (or any one else, really) to advise them how to go about things.

Press people in general like to feel a little smarter than the people they cover. Nixon and Clinton sorely tested that illusion, in a way that most other modern Presidents have not.

(2)With Bill Clinton (and Hillary, by association) we have an additional, age-old malady: pure, green, high-school JEALOUSY.

I've seen this first-hand recently at a Bill Clinton campaign event. Like it or not he is a true SUPERSTAR in every modern sense of that modern word: Nothing or nobody around him gets any attention when he's on the scene. All the earnest little fellows in the back with their cameras and microphones might as well have been lamp-posts. It's not hard to imagine how that feels to driven, ambitious types, talented in their own right. More than a few are certainly class presidents, BMOC's, scholars of note, people of the sort of mild fame that you might otherwise recognize them on a busy street To be reduced to the status of just another bystander, a prop in the circus that is any Clinton event, is hard for a certain type of personality to take.

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I assumed that the NYT would act immediately to do the right thing.

To rectify the harm done to the Clinton campaign by by their damaging article. That Clinton is not a birdbrain running around PA making up crap.

No, she's not a birdbrain running around PA making up crap. She's a birdbrain running around PA telling distorted stories that she's heard on the campaign trail.

I'll admit the story was much better the way she told it than the way it actually happened. But it's compelling enough as is. If she had bothered to check it out and get her facts straight, she could have had a good story and avoided a lot of negative publicity.

I hope that you reincarnate as a woman and go through the process of carrying a child, and experience the unbelievable, horrific pain that occurs when a pregnancy goes wrong.

And I hope that as you feel your guts implode, I hope that
you read your smug little commentary about a candidate who
is 60 years old and dedicating her life to making sure that
what happened to this woman will not happen any more in
America.

You and the the "unifying" candidate who is paying you to damage.

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You sir are full of hot air.

Meanwhile, the rest of us can think for our selves.

The actual story is not one about a broken healthcare system. Clinton got it wrong. There are factual elements in her story, but she still got it wrong.

Sorry, Hunter. Hill's little story is obviously untrue, and she has wisely stopped telling it.

The young woman was not turned away from any hospital for lack of $100. She was afraid to go to the local hospital because she owed them money, so she went to the more distant one, which cared for her.

Aside from wrong facts, Hill's conclusion was that people die when they do not have health insurance. I'm for single-payer, but this anecdote does not support Clinton's point. Even people with coverage run up unpaid bills. I suspect if she had gone to the local med center with a pre-eclampsia condition, they would have tried to work something out, particularly since she did have a job and insurance.

This was a tragedy because the woman did not try to do the best for herself and her baby. Maybe she didn't have someone who cared to help and go to bat for her. But it does not prove the point Hill used it for: the need for universal medical insurance.

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No, you have it wrong. She couldn't go to the local hospital/clinic because she had to pay a $100.00 up front, before they would see her.

Here is something that people do not know - no hospital, doctor, clinic, health center or emergency department has to treat a patient unless it is a life threatening emergency. Even in a matter of life and death their only obligation is to stabalize the patient. Patients who were a financial risk in the past are usually required to pay an upfront fee for care - it is standard practice. (It is also standard practice for transplant patients to prove they can pay for the operation before they have the operation.)

BevD

Please site something specific. I can attest from personal experience that this is not true, both in the emergency room setting and from the transplant recipient pov. I will grant you that in the clinic or in the doctor's office this occurs (not the same things).

Sigh. Can't Obama trolls EVER give facts?
They just "know."

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Sigh.

If you had read the article, you would find that those pesky Obama trolls (at least some of them) are actually correct.

She did not lie, she just should have vetted the story prior to telling it. The details were incorrect in the way second and third hand story details are often incorrect. As such a seasoned politician, she should have known better.

Since your candidate has been vetted, the whole thing has this nice ring of irony. Vetted from day one, unless the story sounds good.

Meanwhile, sit on your high horse and cast about your insults. Calling everyone who you disagree with a troll will not take you far.

Clinton was right on target.
She told the truth, and told it well.

For Obama to Swiftboat this is repellant and repugnant.

He has run the ugliest campaign I've seen in my lifetime.

As far as I'm concerned, he deserves everything the
Republicans have waiting for him.

Give him the nomination. Let McCain finish him off and be done
with it.

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No hospital can legally turn away a patient showing up in an emergency room. The basic "facts" and premise of Hillary' second hand story have factual errors which actually make the larger point of her story wrong.

The woman was NOT turned away from any hospital for lack of money. It is legally against the law for a hospital to do so. Hillary, being a proclaimed "expert" on healthcare would know this, but told the story anyway.

The woman DID have insurance. Hillary made a claim which is factually untrue. While it isn't a lie, that Hillary stated this without having vetted the second hand story for accuracy is foolish, but not a lie per se. However that was why she was telling this story, which is undercut by the actual facts that this woman DID have insurance, and even if she she didn't, she could not and would not be turned away from a hospital ER for lack of funds. Again, Hillary should have known this story didn't add up as she presented it if she is expert on the factual/practical problems of our healthcare system and waved her off pushing a false narrative. If she had been pushing this story to talk about underinsured or people not knowing their rights under the law, etc. then she would have been inbounds in re-telling this story as she did but the underlying facts didn't fit the story narrative she was trying to say and instead made statements which are not accurate to reality even if we took her second hand "facts" are true.

Telling heartrending stories when they are not based on the facts actually harms the prospects of actually addressing the REAL problems with our healthcare system.

The Deputy Sheriff that told Hillary the story, had no first hand knowledge of any of it, and did not even know the woman who died. He was passing on hearsay, and Hillary just ran with it.

Yes we need to fix the health care system, but we also need to deal in facts.

Was the woman turned away because she did not have a $100.00 or not. What is the truth.

If she did not go, because she assumed she would be turned away because she did not have a $100.00 then that is a far different thing. Is that what happened.

What is her family situation. Did she have other children. She was 35 years of age. Did she have a husband, or was there a father involved. Could she not get $100.00 from any family member or friend for a medical emergency.

Please flesh out the truth, instead of pretending that Hillary was spreading the gospel truth. She was not.
She was telling a bunch of hearsay from a person she never met before, and who did not have any first hand knowledge of what actually happened.

Hillary was very careless in how she choose to accept what a stranger told her, and just run with it.

What next, will she run with a story about a woman finding a finger in her chili at Wendy's!

I believe the current term is to "Fake it til you make it."
Ultimately as in a political scientific observer the problem for Hillary isn't one single misstep, misstatement, or even being a woman. I comes down to the absolute focus on the prize the Obama Campaign has.

In spite of the weight of all of his whitewashed past(The book he wrote of his life history is rife with erroneous contrived memories-an ironic trait he shares with Ronald Reagan). In spite of the deep snake infested swamp that his friend Rezko represents. In spite of his sunshiny speechifying, his campaign has become an impressive Noise machine. His campaign is run almost to the letter the way Newt Gingrich would have done it.
his campaign is not shy in attacking those who would attack his well polished,soaring and popular message.

Look at their releases. Look at the language. You will see nouns and adjectives Newt trained his minions to use.
Facts don't matter. The Record doesn't.

What matters is the way you respond to every accusation. Denial isn't important. Discrediting, Deriding and demeaning the messenger is.

Describe them as sickening, dark forces, that threaten the future, the children,they willl weaken us, deprive us. They are deprave corrupt, and bankrupt of any moral standing. Now they are racists, using coded language, manipulating our emotions and steamrolling over the will of the people.

Much of Obama will face is yet to come. His job depends upon destroying his opponents credibility, and whenever dark facts cast a shadow across his path.

Ultimately his best choice will be to concede the race to the better candidate. For the best of the Democratic party. For the the best of the nation.


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You sure spent a lot of words trying to obfuscate a rather weak point.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

It is time for many of us to apologize.

I criticized this incident as another demonstration of the incompetence of the Clinton campaign staff. With the additional information that has now come to light, I don't think criticism at that level was fair. I also said there was a risk of undermining legitimate criticism of the healthcare system by using an example that turned out not to be factual. Well, there's more information now and the weight of it backs what I consider the most salient aspects of Hillary's story.

Hillary's story was in essence true. The story came to Hillary firsthand from a credible source. That doesn't mean she insisted on seeing affidavits sworn by everyone involved, but that is not a reasonable standard for a candidate on the stump.

Hillary was talking about a failed healthcare system. A system that leaves people with medical bills they can't pay, for care they must have, fails in many ways. One of them is discouraging people from seeking care. That has harmful, sometimes life-threatening, effects. This is true even if by law people are entitled to emergency treatment. It is also true in this particular instance even if one hospital appears to have provided treatment for this poor woman without insisting on payment up front. It would be true even if delayed care didn't cause the woman's death. We know enough to admit that the facts do not justify accusing Hillary of fabricating a story for political purposes.

The NY Times owes Hillary an apology, too. It was their reporting, together with a real hospital's asking Hillary to stop telling an inaccurate story, that led many of us to jump to conclusions. We can say in our defense that we didn't pull our criticisms from thin air. Nevertheless, we were wrong.

We can also keep looking for factual deviations in Hillary's retelling of this story from a full and accurate narrative that may emerge. But trying to pick holes in the story to find some justification for continuing to fault Hillary is the wrong thing to do.

The right thing is to admit that we owe Hillary an apology. This is mine.

Thank you for having the courage to say that.

For me, the worst thing is that we have become so lost in whether tiny points were accurate, that we lost site of reality.

This woman and her baby lost their lives.

Couldn't agree more about sometimes losing what's important by obsessing about details.

There was zero courage involved on my part. Your post left me in no doubt that I'd posted messages here that were wrong. The only thing to do was admit it and apologize.

lifelongdem,

Thanks for your post. It's just too bad you don't have more company.

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No one here thinks that using this poor woman's story to sensationalize a bad situation has a little bit of bad taste?

Vote for Hillary because people die otherwise?

The sad fact is that this country has the highest infant mortality rate in the "civilized" world.

I do not need to hear a second hand story about someone's personal misery to help me understand that. I certainly do not want to hear this story as a way to convince me that I should vote for a particular candidate. If she toured with maimed Iraq War Vet, that would be just as distasteful.

Many people on these comment sections cast about accusations of lies. Many of those same people say things the majority of us do not agree with. I sense that this little call for mea culpa is a way of guilt by association.

I stand by my personal view that she should not have been telling this story. I do not feel the need to be sorry. Nor did I say she lied, only that she failed to vet the story properly. I suppose you were not focusing on me, but the idea of group culpability is bothersome to me.

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O'Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens OH started out in 1921 as a maternity hospital and it's still a major part of their business. There is no hospital in Meigs County where Bechtel lives though there are two medical clinics, one run by O'Bleness and one by Holzer Hospital Foundation. Kornblut doesn't seem to get these facts right. Holzer sued and got a judgment against Bechtel in 2002 for $4000+ in unpaid, uninsured medical bills which was paid off in 2005.

Bechtel was insured at the time of her death and worked as a Pizza Hut manager, probably for more than minimum wage but probably not a whole lot more if she was on salary when the hours such a job requires due to high turnover among minimum wage employees are factored in. It's not surprising to see chain restaurant managers working 70 hour weeks sometimes when they're shortstaffed. She might have been putting in extra hours to earn herself some days off or cash she'd need for the baby.

It's quite possible in light of her previous healthcare financial nightmare and long hours Bechtel wasn't keen about taking the time off or and thought having her medical/legal/financial records humiliatingly brought up in the waiting room was a hurdle she didn't want to jump to seek medical attention at the one clinic in town she'd dealt with. A lot of people don't go to the doctor, not recognizing or trying to wish serious medical problems away especially when the diagnosis might disrupt their life, the time off might cost them their job, or might result in medical bills their less than comprehensive coverage won't pay for.

It's a very sad case but if Clinton had learned the facts and told it that way instead of slandering O'Bleness Hillary still could have used the story to make the case for a better healthcare system where the profit motive isn't sancrosanct.

I doubt there's anyone in the area who hadn't heard the barebones of this story as it was reported in the local media long before the OH primary. Since then Hillary - who won SE OH overwhelmingly and has credibility there - gave a wrong account of it her stamp of approval as part of her standard stump speech all over the country.

It put the O'Bleness people in a terrible position: watching a major political candidate erroneously damage their reputation and their business, possibly fatally. Of course they had to speak out and correct the record.

Athens is a small town, Middleport where Bechtel is from even smaller. There aren't enough doctors or medical facilities to go around in rural America as it is. If she'd been talking about a hospital in a major city like New York where there dozens of such places and occurrences the supposed offenders might not have been identified.

If Hillary had repeated this story for another month or two it might have driven O'Bleness out of business. That would have left a hole in SE OH's health infrastructure, made these small towns even less viable, and getting healthcare for local people that much more of an onerous experience.

In short she screwed up and erroneously and intentionally tarred a hospital with negligence.

What are you talking about?
Clinton did not mention the name of the woman or the hospital.

This story was told to her directly by the Deputy Sheriff.

I don't think you think the case is sad at all. I don't think you are trying accomplish anything except hurting a candidate as much as you are able.

A woman and her child died because of a crappy healthcare system.

Clinton is to be commended for using this story to get people to realize that we need change.

All Obamaniacs can think about is beating the competition.

It's a fact that Obama pays people to "work the web."
I keep asking around how much you guys get paid to try to damage.
Great way to make a living, kid. Be proud of yourself.

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LOL

So now we are all paid by Obama to "work the web"...?

Damnit... where the hell is my check Barack?!?

Take the tin-foil off your head hunter.

tinfoil hat? I bet you can buy at least a nice white mink hat to match Michelle Obama's full-length white mink coat.

Sure, people just hang out in blogs 24/7 just for thrills. Nobody has to go out and make a living or go to school.
Same people. Operating under dozens of different ids. Flooding out any pro Clinton article. Getting the Clinton supporters thrown off blogs like Daily Kos and Democratic Underground, or harassing them off.

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More tin-foil blather.

More white-mink blather.

Look, I'm for Obama, but I'm afraid your message seems to be a willful effort to accuse Hillary Clinton of things she just didn't do. What she actually did in this case is very much like what Obama did in another policy area, and so were the consequences.

For starters, to slander someone, you have to say who they are. Hillary Clinton didn't do that in this case. A hospital jumped in and identified itself, erroneously, as the culprit. A reporter tracked down the story, perhaps because people questioned its authenticity. That led to the identification of the medical facilities.

Let's compare this to Obama's story about US troops having to make do with substandard equipment because the Pentagon under the Bush administration isn't coming through. People challenged the story's authenticity. Reporters tracked down Obama's source.

Through a chain of events, Hillary's hospital anecdote embarrassed specific medical facilities.

Through a chain of events, Obama's military equipment story embarrassed the officer who was Obama's source. The Pentagon clearly wasn't pleased; they denied the story. Obama's telling the story can't have helped that guy get an extra stripe or star or whatever he should get next. That does not mean Obama slandered the officer or engaged in a conspiracy to destroy his career.

Both Hillary and Obama were trying to focus attention on important issues touching directly on this nation's welfare - our broken healthcare system in Hillary's case, and our broken military in Obama's. Neither candidate was trying to slander anybody, or sabotage their business, or ruin their reputation and career. In both cases, it seems very likely that the stories resonated with the candidates because they felt sympathy for the victims and concern for the serious problems the stories revealed. The stories also resonated with voters and reporters. Reporters followed up.

What would you want to happen in such cases?

Would you have neither candidate use true anecdotes to highlight the consequences of major issues for real people?

Would you have reporters not follow up such anecdotes when their truth is questioned for fear of embarrassing somebody?

It seems more reasonable to weigh the possible negatives for individuals who may be tracked down in the vetting of such stories against the need for: 1) information to motivate people to back important initiatives such as healthcare reform and restoring our military to a state of readiness, and 2) the public's need to test the truthfulness of presidential candidates before casting votes.

We also need to try to be fair, for god's sake. Hillary drives me nuts sometimes because I think she often is deceptive and divisive and could cost the Dems this election. However, that doesn't mean every word she utters is a lie, or that she is incapable of good. In fact, the Clintons have done a great deal of good. It's their damn divisive campaign I hate. Conversely, I'm very enthusiastic about Obama because I think he's what this country needs at this point - a coalition builder. But Obama does make mistakes. He is a politician.

Today, for example, I wish the Obama campaign had kept its mouth shut about Mark Penn. It's clearly just a political ploy to keep bad news about Hillary in the headlines. It's not that the Obama campaign is lying or stooping to intolerably low tactics, but the campaign is coming down a level. I don't like it.


My apologies for not posting the above message where I intended. It was a reply to the long message above that says, among other things, Hillary slandered O'Bleness.

Now let's see if this ends up as intended, as a correction to my own message!

The hospital was identified as the "same" by Clinton.

And Obama's story was actually true.

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It's a fact that Obama pays people to "work the web." I keep asking around how much you guys get paid to try to damage.

Really? They've never offered me any.

How do you get on the gravy train and get some of that sweet Obama money?

Where are any "facts" that Obama pays people to work the web? And if he does, that mean that Clinton doesn't?

You seriously think that Obama supporters in TPM outnumber the HRC supporters by 200 to 1? You really think there are no hired hands operating under dozens of different ids? (aka sock puppets)

You don't wonder at all why in Daily Kos every single blogger passionately hates Hillary Clinton, and many people posting sound like the same guy?
And if you post a pro Clinton diary there, or in Democratic Underground, at least 15 angry posts spring up? AT ONCE?

You believe in the web, do ya? It's wonderful to believe in things.

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Nice straw man.

The existence of paid trolls does not make all posters trolls.

While I feel that you act a bit like a troll, I withhold that judgment until I have proof.

You, sir, call everyone who disagrees with you a troll.

I think it is definitely wrong to accuse Clinton of lying in this case.

But Clinton damaged the health care debate with this. Because of her and her staff's incompetence, this is now the strawman that can be used against her--and Obama--by the right. If she had only stuck to a true anecdote, we would not be in this situation.

She got pretty much all of the facts of the case wrong, starting from Bechtel being an uninsured minimum-wage earner to what actually happened and whose responsibility it is.

Another Obamite lying through the ass as usual.

This woman was uninsured and in deepshit debt.

Clinton got all the facts wrong? Let's have your link buddy.


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Wrong.

The facts are the woman DID have insurance, which even the Clinton campaign has had to acknowledge and why they stopped using telling this story.

Even if the woman was flat broke and had literally not a single dime to her name and nothing but unpaid bills, she still could not be refused treatment at a hospital ER.

But please scream infantile pejoratives at fellow Democrats and progressives because we support a different candidate than you. That's certainly a way to get people on your side.

WRONG.

"At the time she went into debt to that hospital, Casto said, Bechtel was uninsured, though she later obtained health insurance and was insured at the time of her death."

Since you're such a stickler for truth, do you want to explain why Obama lied to the media when they asked if his top economic aid telephoned the Canadian Embassy?

And why Obama never fired the guy? Maybe because he was taking orders from Obama? Hmmmm?

That was one big dirty whopper!


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First of all, "that hospital" is where the bogus part of the story comes up. It is illegal for a hospital to deny emergency services because of inability to pay because of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act.

Even if Bechtel was in debt to a clinic, even if she had no insurance at all (and she had insurance at the time of her loss of the baby), it is ILLEGAL for a hospital to deny emergency services. Clinton should know this.

Apparently she ran up unpaid bills to a clinic but were since paid off in 2005, but that is irrelevant to the salient facts of this case. She HAD insurance at the time of the medical emergency so that is one point of fact which destroys the entire premise of what Clinton was saying. That said, she could still not legally be refused emergency service even if she didn't have insurance, or any money at all much less $100. That is existing law. Are you suggesting that Clinton doesn't know the law as it pertains to access to emergency medical care?

Apparently, insurance didn't help her much, did it?
DOH!

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No it didn't.

Which is a different and very real issue, which is why we need to address the costs of healthcare coverage and how we as a society deliver and pay for it so everyone has access to good, basic preventative healthcare.

Nobody here is claiming our healthcare system is broken and needs to be fixed. But spinning factually unsound narratives works against addressing the real problems and real issues and getting at real solutions to this mess of a healthcare system we have.

Okay, so for the record, if she wasn't denied treatment, then why did she die?

The above reply was meant to respond to a different post. Which one is irrelevant by now. Trolls have done what they get paid to do. Make mudpie.

No she did nothing to hurt the health care system. NYT and their "need" to support Obama were the real culprits here.

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Really?

You don't think telling stories base don things which are not factually true in order to tell a heart-rending story which is then shown to be not accurate will not hurt the debate about the real need to address the real problems of our healthcare system?

Are you brain damaged?

Her story was factually accurate.

Did you not read the Washington Post link that I provided?

If you have evidence that the Washington Post was not telling the truth, would you like to provide a link?

People are getting seriously tired of paid Obama Trolls making nuisances out of themselves in all of the democratic blogs.

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I have read the linked stores and facts are stubborn things.

First, Tina Bachtel HAD insurance at the time of her medical emergency.

Second, it is illegal for a hospital to deny emergency services because of lack of insurance or inability to pay because of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act.

So even if Bachtel was in debt to a clinic or hospital, even if she had no insurance at all (and she had insurance at the time of her loss of the baby), it is ILLEGAL for a hospital to deny emergency services right now under existing law. Clinton should know this.

Apparently she ran up unpaid bills to a clinic but were since paid off in 2005, but that is irrelevant to the salient facts of this case. She HAD insurance at the time of the medical emergency so that is one point of fact which destroys the entire premise of what Clinton was saying. That said, she could still not legally be refused emergency service even if she didn't have insurance, or any money at all much less $100. That is existing law. Are you suggesting that Clinton doesn't know the law as it pertains to emergency medical care?

I am all for serious changes in our healthcare system, where we have universal health coverage and affordable access to to same.

Spinning facts into heart-rending stories which (and here I think we all agree that this woman lost her baby and died is tragic) into inaccurate misstatements about what occurred in order to sell a narrative about needing to change our healthcare system (which I agree we do need to do, as does almost everyone here).

The problem with your "need to support Obama" theory: The New York Times endorsed Clinton, remember? In general, newspapers don't "need" to support anyone. They say what they think will get people to listen. That's what their real bias is - they get distracted from real news.

She was endorsed by an anonymous editorial board at the
NYT.

The columnists are another story.
They are not allowed to "officially" endorse, but they
attack or puff up whoever they feel like.

Clinton has gotten a small handful of favorable articles over a
period of months, and she is obviously favored by progressive economist Paul Krugman (quite a compliment). But almost all of the NYT political pieces are "Al Gore" jobs.

And we all remember how Frank Rich and Maureen Dowd abhored Al Gore.

Okay, but was the initial article done by one of the editorialists? If not, then the argument still doesn't hold much water. Trust me, I am very aware of the individual columnists' preferences (with the exception of Friedman since he left before he could give a strong indication, but he seemed to be leaning toward Obama as well). However, those columnists don't do the reporting - only opinion columns. In fact, I don't recall a single columnist commenting on this story yet (although I could be wrong).

First off, you are nowhere near the writer that Hunter S. Thompson is.

Second, I get it, you like Hillary, and I have read where you rail against the mean spirited attacks of Obama supporters. Just for clarification, did you really wish someone could be reincarnated as a woman so they could feel what it is like to loose a child? I believe the phrase you used is "and I hope you feel your guts implode". Nice, classy discourse.

After reading all accounts provided, it seems like Hillary got it about 60% right, which means she was also 40% off. This does not mean healthcare is not a problem, or that I do not have sympathy for the woman and child, it does mean that hillary has a problem getting all the facts out there correctly. This seems to be a recurring problem with her (as listed numerous times), and one that she does not seem too concerned about.

I guess my question to you would be, what is your objective, because I do not think this type of over the top outrage and complaining is going to bring anyone over to the hillary camp. Just for the record, I hope your guts never implode and you live a healthy happy life.

Like a good little Troll you make sweeping statements, and back them with nothing.


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And who said irony was dead?

Coming in and calling Obama people trolls, and then making the claim that Obama support is paid for on websites doesn't do wonders for the pose of neutrally and reasonably analyzing the press supposedly piling on HRC. Might be good to bring those points forward in separate posts, so as not to defeat your attempt to persuade someone who might read your thread.

Besides, I have yet to be paid for using an Obama avatar, and am considering a class action suit.

And RE, he isn't claiming to be Real Hunter S. Thompson, just uncapitalized fake hunter thompson. Except the real Hunter S. Thompson, the biggest Nixon hater in the world, would doubtless not be a big HRC fan. Don't look too close at the cartoon, it deconstructs.

Antirecommend.

don't worry. I don't think you're paid.

Sadly, the Obama campaign has adapted Nixon tactics.
The reason that I stopped supporting him early on.

First off:

I feel very bad for the woman and the baby. I have a 2 1/2 year old boy at home, I can't imagine losing a baby, or my wife.

Second:

I think we can ALL agree the NYT sucks. From "Obama a bit drug user" to "McCain had an affair with lobbyist" to this Clinton hack job, it's obvious the NYT is more interested in selling papers then doing any kind of real journalism.

I'm an Obama supporter, I think that his plans to reform health care are more realistic than Hillary's and have a better chance of passing.

And in the end, that's what matters. We must improve the health care system, and we can't afford another Clinton failure.

I agree. That McCain reporting was surprisingly sleazy. Something has happened in the last few months. They did lay off a few hundred people, cut down the size of the paper, and are probably hurting for cash right now. I don't know if that has anything to do with the smelly, facile political reporting. Hiring Bill Kristol was also strange.

Something strikingly weird is that for a while the caucus reporting was balanced in the NYT paper edition, but hugely anti Clinton on the NYT website. It was like a complete double standard, playing for two different markets.

Also, the way they went after Spitzer was kind of sick.

The place she was refused at could not have been a bona-fide hospital in this State, though perhaps a clinic of sorts.

As far as I know - it is illegal for a hospital here in Ohio to refuse treatment regardless of ability to pay. Hospitals around here have been sued for less than that, too.

Also, the OP assumes that all cops always tell the truth and don't ever stretch it.

Boy - are you naive.

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Hypertension in pregnancy associated with protein loss in the urine (Preeclampsia) is a potentially lethal illness.

It should not reach the state of producing severe symptoms if treated properly. Prenatal care is what was missing. Adequate prenatal care may have saved her life.

By the time an emergency arose, she and the fetus were at high risk of dying.

If she was insured why was she not getting proper follow-up?

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/the-clinton-pregnancy.php

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From ABC News:

First, years ago, Bachtel was told she needed to pay $100 before she would be seen by a doctor not because they wanted the money up front, but because she owed the clinic money.

Second, this did not happen at a hospital, but at a private physicians' clinic. Specifically, Holzer Clinic in Gallipolis, Ohio. Hospitals are legally not permitted to deny care to anyone. The rules are quite different for clinics.

Holzer Clinics Inc. is a private series of clinics (not to be confused with Holzer Hospitals). Holzer Clinic Inc. has nine offices throughout southeastern Ohio and West Virginia. They take in about 500,000 patient visits a year, including more than 100,000 Medicaid patients a year and maybe 25,000 patients with no insurance.

Holzer Clinics Inc. tries to work with patients who accrue medical debts. But there are times when a patient mounts up debts and the clinic system believes he or she needs to make more of an effort.

When that happens, the patient enters an "advanced payment status." Before the doctor will see the patient at this private clinic, he or she is asked to pay $100. If the patient says he cannot pay, he or she is counseled to go to a hospital emergency room.

This is what happened to Trina Bachtel, who at the time had no health insurance.

There are exceptions. Doctors at Holzer Clinics Inc will see patients in "advanced payment status" if, for instance, they have been referred out of an emergency room, if they've since gone onto Medicaid, or if they're receiving workers compensation. Cancer patients in chemotherapy, and pregnant patients will be seen whether or not they pat the $100.

Which brings us to the third point: when Bachtel was told she needed to pay the $100 before the visit -- and court records show that she'd owed thousands of dollars to the Holzer System -- she was not pregnant.

Bachtel got pregnant and in 2007 suffered through a difficult pregnancy, suffering from preeclampsia, characterized by high blood pressure and the presence of protein in the urine, effecting 5-8% of all pregnancies.

At that time she had health insurance.

For whatever reason, she thought that she would need to pay Holzer Clinics Inc. $100 and she did not go to the clinic.

"She was told she had to have $100 upfront and that's why she never went there when she got pregnant," one of her family members told me.

Later she went to O’Bleness Memorial Hospital when it was an emergency.

Her son was stillborn there on August 1, 2007. She was airlifted to OSU Medical Center in Columbus, where she died two weeks later.

It is all sad. It is all tragic. The family is grieving, and the renewed scrutiny of it all by the media -- prompted by Sen. Clinton using the ancedote -- is bringing them back to those dark days last August.

Those are the facts. A young woman lost her life and the life of her child. But no hospital or clinic denied her coverage as a pregnant woman. She had insurance when she died.

Where's your link, and what is the date, buddy?

You've been doing this long enough to know better.

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