As Indiana tightens, evidence strengthens that McCain meddlers delivered state to Clinton
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As with Ohio, the results in Indiana are narrowing. Hillary Clinton now leads by just under 1.1% -- down from 1.4% on election night. It won't make a difference for the nomination battle, but it does strengthen the argument that were it not for McCain supporters, Hillary Clinton would not have won Indiana.
Let me run through numbers for you based on the new vote totals.
- Hillary Clinton has 644,594 votes and Barack Obama has 630,599 votes
- About 83,500 McCain supporters voted for Clinton
- According to the exit poll, if Clinton were to win the nomination, 16% of primary voters would vote for McCain, 41% of whom voted for Clinton in the primary. As a result, 6.6% (16% * 41%) of Indiana primary voters voted for Clinton but plan to vote for McCain in the fall even if she wins the nomination
- 6.6% of Indiana primary voters is 83,563. (13% of Clinton's total vote.)
- About 27,500 McCain supporters voted for Obama
- Also according to the exit poll, if Obama were to win the nomination, 18% of primary voters would vote for McCain, 12% of whom voted for Obama in the primary. As a result, 2.2% (18% * 12%) of Indiana primary voters voted for Obama but plan to vote for McCain in the fall even if he wins the nomination.
- 2.2% of Indiana primary voters is 27,544. (4.4% of Obama's total vote.)
- After factoring out the McCain supporters who voted for each candidate:
- Clinton received 560,941 votes from sincere supporters (48.2% of the vote)
- Obama received 603,055 votes from sincere supporters (51.8% of the vote)
- Therefore, among voters who are not committed McCain supporters, Barack Obama won a 3.6 point victory, a swing of nearly 5 points from the current vote tally.
Keep in mind I'm not taking a position on why these McCain supporters voted for Clinton. It doesn't matter to me whether it was the Limbaugh Effect or whether they were honestly expressing their choice for second-place. What matters is they don't intend to vote for either Obama or Clinton in November, and I think any fair analysis of Indiana must factor these voters out of the equation.
As a postcript, what about North Carolina? Using the same method as above, 16% of Clinton voters in North Carolina were actually McCain supporters, compared with 3% of Obama supporters. Factoring out the McCain meddlers for both both candidates, overall Obama would have won 61%-39%, a 22-point win instead of 57%-42%, a 15-point win.
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So how might these voters have impacted the demographics of the exit polls?
Without the cross-tabs, we can't be sure, but it's reasonable to estimate that that nearly all of these pro-McCain voters were white. After all, in 2004, 99% of Bush's support in Indiana was white. Assuming they are all white, then:
- 83,653 white Clinton voters were actually McCain backers
- 27,544 white Obama voters were actually McCain backers
Also from the exit poll, we know that:
- 596,790 Clinton voters were white (93% of her total)
- 397,860 Obama voters were white (63% of his total)
By subtracting the McCain backers from each candidate we learn that:
- 513,138 white Clinton voters were sincere
- 370,316 white Obama voters were sincere
Thus, excluding McCain meddlers, Clinton won among white voters 58% to 42%. That 16-point margin is significant, but it's also 4 points smaller than her 20-point 60%-40% lead when McCain meddlers are included.
Also, the 16-point margin is almost half that of the 30-point margin in Ohio, suggesting that the whole narrative about Obama losing support among whites is completely false. In fact, Obama is making significant progress.
The same pattern holds true in North Carolina. Including McCain meddlers, Clinton won by 24 points among white voters, 61%-37%. After excluding McCain meddlers, she still leads, but her margin shrinks to 18 points, 58%-40% -- also much closer than in Ohio.
Of course, since these numbers don't take gender into account -- Clinton's lead among white voters is attributable to white women -- it's questionable how meaningful they are. But given the Clinton campaign's obsession with Clinton's seemingly magical ability to win among white voters, it's useful to know what the real numbers are. And as these numbers show, the gap is closer than most people think -- and it seems to be closing as the campaign goes on.
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Originally posted at The Jed Report.




Here's the correct link for the Indiana results, sorry for the bad link...
http://www.in.gov/apps/sos/primary/sos_primary08?page=office&countyID=-1&partyID=-1&officeID=36&districtID=-1&districtsh
May 12, 2008 2:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rec'd and agreed w/ inspectormerlot that this complements articleman's latest post.
May 12, 2008 4:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Any investigation into the Lakewood Voter Fraud?
:-)
May 12, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love statistics. You can prove or parse almost anything.
Look, Senator Clinton won Indiana, get over it. Lets move on please.
May 12, 2008 7:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I love elections.
May 12, 2008 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
First off you have to believe exit polls. And if you do. God bless you. But I have never given a straight answer to anyone asking me anything after I have voted. They are not accurate at all and there is no way to prove that they are.
May 12, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
I heard this a lot from Republicans explaining the discrepancies in the exit polls and election results in '04, and I'll ask you the same question I asked them—why?
Why not simply tell them it's none of their business? I see nothing positive to gain from lying to exit pollers other than the ability to later post on a discussion board that you can't trust exit polls because you yourself have lied to them.
It really strikes me as pulling-wings-off-flies type behavior.
May 12, 2008 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because, I don't want or need anyone up in my business just after I have performed the most important function in my Citizenship. Its an irritating ceremony that has developed because of two things
1. As Americans we need to know the answer now and exit polls give TV networks that ability get those "results" before polls close.
2. The exit polls are there for reason number 1. And reason number one is driven by money as well. If there wasn't any money invovled in this equation only 4th year political science students would be doing exit polls.
May 12, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are also some very sound social science reasons for conducting exit polls.
May 12, 2008 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
They are still primarily run for the sake of the media whom pay handsomely for the results.
May 12, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ben, not to change subjects but weren't you commenting on friday about Obama not pandering? Any comment on his lastest sucking up to the Coal Barons in Eastern Ky?
May 12, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
There's nothing "latest" about it. This is the position he has always had.
May 12, 2008 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Uh huh..yeah sure.
May 12, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Unlike the panderer.
May 12, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
exactly.
May 12, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Louisville, you sound more and more like a GOP troll with every post.
May 12, 2008 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
True.
Obama has been consistently friendly to the coal industry. In 2006, he cosponsored S.3325, the "Coal-To-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act of 2006" with Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY).
http://obama.senate.gov/press/060607-senators_obama/index.php
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-3325
This bill never became law and he has subsequently cosponsored S. 154: "Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Energy Act of 2007", and S. 155: "Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act of 2007", both bills also with Sen. Jim Brunning of Kentucky.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-154
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-155
May 12, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The methodology of the math is provided. If you disagree with it, say why. Just saying "stats can't be trusted" is intellectually lazy and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
May 12, 2008 7:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have never given a straight answer to anyone asking me anything after I have voted.
Or after you've commented ...
Kudos for consistency.
May 12, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't worry. I will get to you Chino. Don't feel neglected.
May 12, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't worry. I will get to you Chino. Don't feel neglected.
May 12, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Me worry? I heard you the first time. Hobgoblins aside, what's on your mind?
May 12, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't trust anyone trying to sell you math. Math salesmen are notorious liars who love to lull you into buying their outcomes by using "addition" and "subtraction."
Math salesmen say they are impartial but we know that numbers can't be trusted. Math salesmen are beneath arms dealers and volatile chemical salesmen - they'll say anything to make a sale.
May 12, 2008 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
And Kennedy didn't win with "dead" people in chicago in 1960 or with extra "votes" cast in WVA in 1960. Al Gore didn't lose Florida because of "math" salesman either. So yes, those math sales guys , no, I don't believe it.
May 12, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great example!!
People do not trust numbers. Numbers are evil. Your factless opinions are the only things your can trust.
May 12, 2008 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sky blue in your world?
May 12, 2008 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
No the sky is green where I am.
(or perhaps I'm just telling you that to mess with your "sky is blue" exit polling)
May 12, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL
Touché
May 12, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
don't forget the terrorist group
al gebra
May 12, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's a certain circularity in the analysis within this post to which I object.
Yes, if you only go off the "sincere" voters, Obama won, but then the pool shrunk, and you won a less relevant pool, less representative of an Indiana Democratic primary. This is a very red state. We haven't won it since 1964.
I don't share the view, held by many, that voters who prefer McCain to Obama, but would also prefer Clinton to Obama, are some sort of false phenomenon that should be read out of the data. This is a really false comfort to give one's self.
This is not quite like the Limbaugh voters, who think Clinton and Obama are both putrid, and pull the lever just to fuck with Democrats. There are centrists who could go either way on McCain/Clinton, but don't want Obama (just as there are many independents who think the real choice is Obama/McCain and hate Hillary). Their votes all count as one vote. Our job is to win the total of all votes, strategic or not, partial to McCain, or not.
So, no offense, I really do like the numbers in this, and find them very edifying and helpful, and appreciate the work the poster did, but I pretty strongly disagree with the theory of this post.
To extend on what I see as the fallacy here, the poster says that when you "factor out" McCainists in NC, Obama won by way more. Well, again, they vote too, and in the new NC data out today on Election Central, both Obama and Clinton would trail McCain by identical margins.
So while the poster's idea (or I would say wish) is that factoring out the McCain vote or crossover vote shows how much better Obama is than Clinton, the NC Clinton vote (as of today) reallocates more evenly in the general between Obama and McCain. So I'm not sure what it really means to say that Obama won by more in NC among "sincere" people or Dems.
Truth is, at that point, one is making Hillary's insupportable argument that Obama's weaker than her because he wins among independents, while she wins among true Dems (which was very true early in this process, less true late in it). Never liked that argument. It's not the system we have. We let anyone vote in open primaries, and your ship has to be strong enough to let that wave pass beneath it. Obama's was, Clinton's wasn't. Let's not reinvent the data.
Nuff said.
May 12, 2008 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Which is another argument entirely. Do we have a Democratic party...or do we have an Indepent + Democratic Party. I think its a huge question that the party needs to figure out. And, why not dispense then with the whole idea of a party system and have an open General Election for anyone that wants to run?
May 12, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
We've always had a mixture of open and closed primaries, caucuses and primaries. Crossover votes here and there don't blow up a two party system. It's really not a big deal. We just have to win the most in the fall.
It's not like either Obama or Clinton depended principally on nonDemocrats, these were effects at the margins.
You could also argue that the current extreme superiority in party identification is from independents and Republicans Obama (and to a lesser extent Clinton) have caused to cross-register. That's got to be good for our party.
May 12, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
an open general has a couple problems.
1. we could end up with way too many names on the ballot to be practical.
2. splitting up of voting blocks. i.e. if clinton and obama both run against mccain, the two dems would draw from the same voter pool, giving mccain a huge advantage.
When I am king, there will be http://www.instantrunoff.com/ which will address the second problem, but not the first.
May 12, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I'll happily place you 2nd or 3rd on my list for re-coronation!
Instant Runoff Voting is something I would definitely like to see, even if it has to start in a small state's party primary or something.
May 12, 2008 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
This premise is somewhat flawed in my opinion. It assumes you are the arbiter of "sincere".
As an independent, I'll leave the rule making up to the states - thanks. But you might want to ponder that many independents are donating to Obama. Do you think that would be true (at this early stage) if we weren't allowed to vote in the primaries? Careful what you wish for.
You give comfort to Hillary's accusation that Obama supporters want to disenfranchise voters (which is bunk of course, but you are a bit conspiracy happy).
Clinton won Indiana, Obama won the nomination - be happy.
May 13, 2008 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........
May 12, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
alarm goes off...beep, beep, beep, beep...otto tries to hit the snooze button but accidently turns on the radio..."This is NPR news. All the experts are calling the Democratic primary over as Barack Obama has won the most votes, most states, most delegates"...otto wakes up and realizes it's a new day in America.
May 12, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sleeping off the Crown Royal binge the other night?
May 12, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read about a guy in Indiana, a Republican, who voted for Obama but said he was voting for McCain in November. The reason for the Obama vote, he explained, is that he wanted to help pick who the winner would be if his first choice, McCain, loses. He prefers Obama over Clinton. Interesting reasons. Not a prank vote, really, but I don't think I'd call it insincere, either.
May 12, 2008 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exit polls are conducted by a combination of representatives from media outlets. Voters are given a survey to fill out and post in a box provided by the pollster. When the polls are closed, the survey forms are counted and the results are averaged with the telephone polling done the day before the election. Often the telephone polling shows a large number of undecided voters and the pollsters are required to extrapolate from available information how those votes will fall. Exit polling is notorious for mistakes. If you examine the regular polling for this campaign, you will find a pattern. For example Zogby and CNN polls always give the edge to Obama. Survey USA and Fox give the edge to Clinton. No methodology was shown in this article and it is complete garbage.
May 12, 2008 10:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's all been a pretty good argument for closed (or at least semi-closed) primaries.
May 12, 2008 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink