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Obama The Flipflopper


Watching meet the press while I clean the kitchen, Russert thinks he has Obama caught in a flip-flop:  You say the sales tax holiday in Illinois didn't work - then why did you vote for it? 

I wasn't paying close enough attention to be able to quote properly, but Obama's response was basically that seeing the results of the sales tax holiday led him to change his mind after the fact. 

My wife, who doesn't follow politics, and reacts to political coverage the same way I react to The View, laughs behind me.  When she has a reaction to something political, I know I should take notice.  Russert didn't know what to say.  It was like he'd never heard a politician say that on further review they were wrong, without it being obvious pandering in the realm of Mitt Romney on abortion or John McCain on the religious right in general.  You mean to tell me that it's possible to try something, observe that it didn't have the desired effect, then say "maybe we shouldn't try that again?"

I'm sure I'm mis-attributing this quote, but my father always told me that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.  I'm truly excited to have a national leader who has the self confidence and intelligence to be able to recognize his own mistakes.  We don't need another president that is obsessed with looking tough to the detriment of the county we're leaving to leave to our kids. 



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Wow, I said exactly the same thing to my husband - "God, isn't it nice to have a politician that can admit a mistake, or admit that something that he tried didn't work, and change direction?" This is not flip-flopping; it is learning and trying something different. It is indeed a refreshing change and what we need in a leader right now!!!

Wow! I agree, it would be nice to have a president who can actually learn from their mistakes... that is called experience... the saddest part of this primary season is the fact that HRC is no different than GWB... both throw facts over the side when they don't support ideology....

Yes, that moment was striking. Of course Clinton and McCain are going to try to slap him around with it. She has already been hitting the airwaives saying he did it in Ill and doesn't want to share with Indy & NC.

Truthfulness and candor are perfect foils to Hillary's bombast. He's finally found his groove against her.

At least he was honest enough to admit that trying it in Illinois didn't work which illustrates that he doesn't just pull ideas out of thin air.

The best part about it was that Obama brought it up before Russert tried to pin that to him. What do you wanna bet that was the next note on his list!

I am sick to death of that "insanity..." trope. The bar for insanity is set much, much higher. What that tired cliche describes is an inability to learn from experience. Nothing more. Please add it to the list of things we never hope to hear again.

In this matter, Obama simply showed that he is able to learn from experience, and realizes it. McCain and Clinton, on the other hand, are unwilling to listen to people who do in fact know what they are talking about. Kind of like...Bush!

Just because we've heard it before doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Obviously its not the clinical definition, thanks for pointing that out.

I appreciate that you agree with the broader point, and I'm not a fan of soundbite politics, but I think that just because a point can be made in a soundbite doesn't mean that we shouldn't say it if it's true.


And either never admitting to a mistake...

Like her vote on Iraq. Or that maybe saying 'Obliterate Iran' was a bit overboard...

Or McSame's now doing everything possible to run away from his 100 year comment. "thats not what I said, even though you just played what I said"....

mercy..

I think Hillary's internals that are supposedly showing her making up ground with this gas tax thing are a phantasm--a polling artifact created by the process of asking questions about it rather than a measurement of any real change in voter opinions in the general population. Of course, I don't know any way to measure that.

I think she's counting on ill-informed voters who'll take her at her word rather than research or learn more about this gas tax holiday. And her polling must show that there must be a lot of these types of voters.

Sadly, the last eight years have proven that there are...

Mrs. Clinton is always counting on ill informed voters. Time and time again she says and does things that demonstrate that she believes her own internal polls and then makes a mistaken conclusion: She really seems to believe that less educated means dumb. That's a big mistake. I'm the first in my family who could go to college, but my family isn't dumb. They get it just fine when she panders and I doubt that we're the only ones. The trouble with lies and innuendos and sneaky things is that once people catch you at it, they're on the look out. If you're paying attention, the next one sticks out.

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Relying on blind trust (and no fact-checking) is her entire campaign strategy at this point.

My gramps is in Indiana, two of my Aunts & one Uncle and their families live there, my mom grew up there. Gramps grew up in Indiana and has never left, he’s in the same farm house (with many upgrades on the house and the Barn) my mom and her siblings grew up in (most of their lives anyway).
He received this mailer yesterday. For what he did with it, the hilarious story is in the comments on the ‘Election Central’ page under the ‘Hillary Drops New Indiana Mailer Attacking Obama On Guns, "Bitter" Comments’ article. It’s a classic IMO.
Having talked to him this morning, he’s recommended that the rest of the family follow suit with their mailers if they happen to receive them. Having talked to two of my cousins, they game.
Anyway, purpose of my post was to say, my relatives, which number 36 old enough to vote with many kiddlets runnin round their various homes spread throughout about a 50-mile radius around Fort Wayne. Sounds to me like not one of them and most folks they know has fallen (according to Gramps and Cousins & Aunt) for Hillary’s ridiculous ‘Gas Tax’ or Rev Wright, or ‘Bittergate’ or anything else they’ve tried to get Obama with. They all are looking forward to voting for Obama next Tuesday, and hope like many of us that its over with after than...
So there a little measure of Indiana thoughts on the primary…

Well, ok, I admit Obama learns very fast.

Took him only three votes for tax holiday in his own state to figure it out.

But at least he learned in time for his presidential campaign.

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Yep, he thought it was a good idea. Trying to help the little guy with some relief made sense. That was until he saw the aftermath. The OIL COMPANIES raised their prices to compensate for the tax relief. Since the law couldn't restrict companies, the people saw no relief but the oil companies saw a nice little windfall as a result of the "tax holiday".

A wise man learns from unforseen mistakes. What started out as something good was twisted into profit margins. Apparently McSame and Hillary have no problem with giving the oil companies a little more money in their pocket. Obama, however, has seen first hand what happens and will not repeat it.

He was for it before he was against it.

Sound familiar?

He wants to do nothing so Obama supporters should stop whining about gas prices.

Clinton supporters want them to start doing something.

We will win this issue like the rest.

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OK, right. Hillary's winning. Now, just go quietly back to your nice padded cell.

I've posed this question to both of you before, to no answer. In 2000, Hillary was against a gas tax. If the problem you have is that he hasn't been consistent, you should be equally critical of Senator Clinton on this. The problem for you is that she went from being right to wrong.

Now all we need is "Scratching-Obama" for the tri-fecta!!!

What he doesn't want to do is ring up another $10 billion in federal debt for a short term program that offers no real relief and likely further enriches the oil companies who will simply raise their prices in the gas tax vacuum. Izzat so hard to understand?

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Hard to understand how you could be so wrong.

You can do the math and see that the savings are small but significant, if they come about. The argument then boils down to whether or not they will actually come about.

My expectation is that if the tax "holiday" was implemented, a gas war would immediately ensue, and even if the retailers did not want to lower prices, competition would force them to do so.

Gas wars are usually bad for the retailer but good for the consumer.

In its effect on the environment and other social impacts, as well, cheap gas generates a whole set of issues.

Thanks.

mp

What planet do you come from? There's no such thing as a competitive gasoline market. Whenever one guy raises his price, do you see others dropping theirs to be competitive? No, it's exactly the opposite: they raise their prices too! This is because (Econ101) when demand rises and supply is inelastic (or constrained artificially), price RISES.

The last competitive gasoline market was back in the 1970's. You ain't gonna see that come back until there's an alternative fuel that costs less than gasoline.

Yeah as Ol' Hillary said "your either with us or against us" just like Ol' dumbya...

Classic...

Yeah, just like Hillary was first for the war before she was against it. Cool-they both lose. McCain wins, USA loses--awesome!

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Hey, I just got the really big point! MassDem, (who has a wife, and therefore I presume is male) was CLEANING THE KITCHEN!

Is this a whole new, untapped demographic for Obama? Both my sons clean the kitchen and they are Obama supporters.

Stop the presses! Get the word out!

This'll make Mark Penn's head explode - I, a high school grad (thats right, no higher ed, white male), was cleaning the kitchen, barefoot, at the request of my educated wife in a small town, while drinking a dunkin donuts's iced coffee on a cold day.

I think, based on demographics, I need to write in Ron Paul in the general...

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Me too. I am calling my super delegates and taking it all back.

I LOVE this absurd argument.

This is why Obama's against it now. He knows it didn't work. He cares about the effect these policies have on the American people. He'll admit he's wrong, readjust what needs to be done based on the new information, and become more effective.

And no, it is NOT the same as Hillary and NAFTA. Hillary and her supporters said she was ALWAYS against NAFTA, behind closed doors. Then we found her supporting it. Supporting as late as 2006 in a Tim Russert interview. Instead of just saying it isn't working and she's adjusting.

Except NAFTA DOES work in TX. It was pretty fancy footwork for HIllary to tell two completely different tales in TX and OH.

God, she's a great liar.

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She's a liar, alright. Great? Not so much.

She can just do it without batting an eye; just like Bush and Cheney. That's not great, but it is fortunately, not that common. Have you ever noticed McCain when he's lying? He blinks his eyes about 60 times a minute -- a true tell. Now Hillary, she just looks you right in the eye and lies her pants off; no blinking, no embarassment -- and when she knows she's been caught she says it means she's human.

MassDem, I'm so sorry that you missed the full exchange. Russert leaned into Obama after the full answer and said, smiling "You mean you learned from your mistake." Obama smiled and totally agreed. It was a real indication of what Russert thought. It was beautiful!

I'm very glad to hear that Russert got the point, I'll look forward to it on the podcast. Now, he needs to take it one step further and highlight the moment when he appears on MSNBC and NBC news over the next 24 hours. Too often, these nuanced but important traits about the candidates never make it into the public consciousness because those that have the megaphone on TV would rather focus on polls, etc...

I thought Obama handled the entire exchange about the gas tax brilliantly. He laid it all right out there on the table and was not defensive in the least about it.

Usually I hate watching these sorts of things because it pains me to see politicians dance and weave, trying to cover all of the bases while at the same time trying not to antagonize anyone. I know that the press is having a hard time dealing with it, but I do truly appreciate being spoken to as an adult who can see shades of gray in issues without my head exploding.

In case anyone else out there doesn't have cable and was intrigued by this post enough to want to check out the interview, here's a link to it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24452804#24452804

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Yeah, it shouldn't be "the definition of insanity." It's really "the definition of stupidity." But (strangely perhaps) it's more polite to call someone "insane" than "stupid." At least when you call someone "insane" they can come back that, no, it's really you who are crazy. If you say they're "stupid," they're pretty much stuck with either proclaiming their own genius, or arguing that you're stupid too.

The other point here is that a sales tax holiday is supposed to help with consumption of stuff like clothing, hardware - generally stuff that it's a net positive if people acquire, and merchants sell more of. It's stuff we're not running out of, that we don't buy from terrorist funders. Gasoline isn't like that.

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What I love MOST about the gas-tax holiday is that it is truly democratic. All those Hummer-drivers get the same break as those of us who just came out of the Car Max lot with what we could afford. It makes me feel really good to know that my neighbor, who drives a Porche will get the same break as my Honda-driving teenager!

All those SUV's that suck up the gas -- they will not be penalized by this wonderful idea of Hillary's and John's.

And the suckers who don't even HAVE cars and use public transportation, but who have a gas surcharge attached to their garbage bills -- in the words of Hillary, "Screw 'em."

Ahhhhh, democracy! Hillary really knows what it's all about! She can even talk like hicks when she wants to (only it is so painful to listen to that even the bats fly out of the eaves of my garage when she does it).

As I learned from a very successful entrepreneur: "If you're not making mistakes, you're not trying enough new things to make any significant progress. Incremental gains are the best you can hope for without the courage to make mistakes and learn from them."

My reaction to Obama's comment on MEET THE PRESS that he voted for the gas tax but then realized afterward it had been a bad idea was to remind me that he took Clinton to task for voting for IRAQ and then changing her mind, seeing it had not gone well. "What does it matter if you are ready on Day One if you are wrong on the issues?" he told her.
Apparently he, too, changes his mind after he votes (i.e. has been wrong on the issues.) My take was that Tim Russert was subtly making that point by his questioning.
I also rather enjoyed (I hate to admit this, but it's true, I enjoyed it) his flip-flop on the very Rev. "I could no sooner denounce the Reverend than I could my own grandmother" Wright, who he's now denounced.
Obama. What a guy. If he keeps this up, he'll be qualified to be President of the United States. He'll know how to pander, how to spin, and how to increase his worth from $4 million to $109 million post-presidency.

The difference is that he is not changing his mind to the politically convenient position as she did on Iraq, in fact he is doing the opposite.

I thought this might come up, it occurred to me too.

She did not learn from it, never apologizing for years, and then voting for Kyl Lieberman. Iran comments notwithstanding, she really has no ground to stand on to say she learned anything, not that she would ever admit she was wrong, or didnt always have all the answers.

This might sound stupid, but I've heard Kyl-Lieberman mentioned before. What exactly does it do?

It's been seen as a sort of stealth AUMF vs. Iran.

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And the other difference is that it was about a freaking gas holiday, and not declaring a war!

And the NIE was left UNREAD by Hillary (because she got BRIEFINGS by people who were hell-bent to go to war).

If you equate these two things, you are a part of the problem. If you think every decision is the same as the other, how do you make it in the world? Do you think the decision as to what you have for breakfast is as important as whether you will show up for work that day, and whether you do you work with the diligence it requires?

This really struck me:

Obama. What a guy. If he keeps this up, he'll be qualified to be President of the United States. He'll know how to pander, how to spin, and how to increase his worth from $4 million to $109 million post-presidency.

So, according to you it is the pandering and spinning that got the Clintons their multi-millions. Well, at least we agree on one thing!

nice, well said

Yes, we definitely agree.

And give him time -- he'll have a chance to make those decisions about war too.

he didn't admit he did it for Il, but he voted 3 times for it, so, why didn't he SAY he offered it to Il?

why didn't he say we tried it in IL when I was senator and it didn't work? Except it did.

I speculate, he was reading lines and didn't believe it had the desired effect,which was *temporary* a little bit of scratch since things have become so expensive.

Truckers pass the cost along to consumers are the ones affected that bring food to market. Those are the ones who would benefit most.

Most of us realize it isn't a fix all, its TEMPORARY to ease some of the high costs lately in EVERYTHING.

Except to Hillary haters because she can't do right. Hey so what's Obama's solution?He can be a killjoy, but I like the one that brings with solutions. Obama is absent and not ready for prime time.

Except to Hillary haters because she can't do right.
Why must someone hate Hillary Clinton in order to oppose the gas tax cut? Are you saying that every economist out there is also a Hillary hater?

I know that not all Clinton supporters put forth the same kinds of arguments (thank goodness), but I get frustrated that instead of joining a debate with the Obama supporters, some of you immediately attribute our points to emotionalism--we "hate" Hillary or we're "blinded" by Obama. Projection, much?

[quote]"Except to Hillary haters...."[/quote]

You know, that's a pretty neat little tactic that always seems to work with the shrubster. How do you shut up an opponent of this administration? Call them a "Bush-hater." Presto! The debate comes to an immediate and crunching halt.

You really have to try a different stunt instead using the Rovian tactic of trivializing your opponents' positions. Of course, with her arrogance, her dishonesty, and her bullying self-aggrandizement, Shrillary seems to be little more than a female version of the current resident of the White House.

Truckers pass the cost along to consumers are the ones affected that bring food to market. Those are the ones who would benefit most.

That requires that there is a net savings on the cost of gas at the pump, which is in fact not the case. There is no incentive for oil companies to keep the price commensurate with the tax cut... in fact, if demand increases and supplies decrease (as happens over the summer), the price may actually climb higher so the consumer gets zero benefit.

Oh yeah, another difference: the federal government uses the gas tax to fund jobs, roads, and the civilian infrastructure.

Additionally: Truckers don't pass savings onto consumers.

"he didn't admit he did it for Il, but he voted 3 times for it, so, why didn't he SAY he offered it to Il?

why didn't he say we tried it in IL when I was senator and it didn't work? Except it did."

He did admit that he voted for it and he said that it didn't work and that's why he's against it now.

I'm not sure that you saw the same show that we all did.

Hey anyone seen my 66' Mauser Rifle I was planning to take it to Bosnia and hunt me some ducks

Obama has drunk Clinton's milkshake dry. He drank it up. She has nothing left but her straw, glass, and the loud bubbly noise that recalls the sweet, creamy, chocolaty goodness that once was.

Now I have images of the two clubbing each other over the head with bowling pins...

god that was a brutal scene

Clinton's position on the gas tax is an excellent reason not to vote for her. Say anything to get elected, even if it actually hurts us in the long run.

Getting rid of the gas tax is a horrible idea. After sitting by and letting Detroit churn out gas guzzling vehicles, we now take money out of our own pockets to help anyone who wants to drive do more of it. If she really wants to help the american tax payer, find a way to target help to those who need it. The people who can't afford to drive to work, not the ones who just want to continue their wasteful lifestyles at the expense of our roads and public transit systems.

I have always believed that "experience" is a false narrative. If you do not learn from your experiences what does it matter? Someone may have 35 years of "experience" -- as Hillary claims and McCain likewise -- and still not have the good sense to know making different choices produces different outcomes.

Up until it became politically unpopular Hillary cheered on the Iraq war. When asked if she regrets the decision now she answered, I wish I could take my vote back. So does what does that mean? She not only voted to give carte blanche to Bush for Iraq she did likewise when she voted for the Kyl-Lieberman bill regarding Iran, although she claims the latter does not give Bush the same powers. However, it's close. Furthermore following in Bush's footsteps using bellicose language Hillary's recent threats to obliterate Iran, if it attacks Israel, not only has international implications it shows a lack of "experience."

By all indications McCain's "experience" has done little to teach him how to solve problems, either. He proposes recreating the G-8 without China in-addition to replacing the United Nations with a League of Democracies that would exclude Russia, China, Singapore, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Morocco etc... In a global economy policies of hostility and exclusion are apt to alienate America further and create more problems if not start a cold war. While willing to, albeit falsely, claim he criticized the war's execution in the beginning McCain refuses to admit the Iraq war was a mistake. That is what McCain's "experience" has taught him.

Granted Hillary Clinton and John McCain have more "experience" in years, but their unwillingness to make different decisions or admit to mistakes leave a lot to be desired.

In contrast Obama easily acknowledged his mistake which in and of itself is significant; It shows strength of integrity with a willingness to change the outcome. His pragmatic and sensible approach to solving problematic situations coupled with nuanced, objective thinking and confidence in himself proves experience taught him well. For those reasons I have complete confidence in Barack Obama's leadership abilities.

Notably "years of experience" versus "learned from experience" have starkly different outcomes. I choose the latter.

Exactly. If "experience" were the most important factor in management, only decrepit old farts would be successful in the business world, and looking at folks like Bill Gates we know thats not the case.

Its experience plus good judgment plus a good dose of timing.

True. Successful management also involves a great deal of waiting on the sidelines for the outcome, and then swooping in to take credit / assign blame before anyone else does.

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Bill Gates is a poor choice of example, since he was a lousy manager and, indeed, never played much of a management role in his companies.

The old saying is, "In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence."

From long experience in the real world, I can state categorically that this notion that experience is not important is pernicious and false. Almost without exception, lack of experience results in bad decisions. Judgement is based on experience as much as on any ineffable "quality of character." All the worst managers I've had were young, inexperienced and promoted because they were eager ass-kissers.

Hmm, sounds like a description of a certain Democratic Presidential aspirant.

Thanks.

mp

Allow me to correct myself: replace "manager" with "leader".

A better example of an Obama flip-flop would be this:

"I can no more disown him [Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. These people are a part of me."
Barack Obama - Philadelphia - March 18, 2008

Another example of him learning from experience. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Note that I (and Emerson) said a FOOLISH consistency.

Wow. 3.39AM and Otto the Racist Scumbag, Aryan Nation Troll(ANT), is still busy at work.

He made a similar remark to Matt Lauer, this morning.

What few mention is that Obama was not touting the tax reduction in order to win an election.

Unless we change the fundamentals, prices are going to stay high.

Is saw a speech last year by Ray Kurweil, he claims we could develop solar based electric within a 15 year span as the price of the panels will drop due to nano-manufacturing. It's clean, renewable and a real chage.

We need a president that understands the complexities of what it will take to turn these possibilties into reality.

There are three industries involved 1) Global Oil
2) Electric Generation 3) Automakers. (Note the coal industry is also a factor, since 92% is used for electric generation)

The Telsa roadster is beyond what most Americans can afford. But so was a plasma TV ten years ago.
GM lost 3.3 billion last year. Hard for them to invest heavy in R&D while they are swiming in red. So we see a start up, like Telsa coming along. Apadt of fall by they wayside.

The future can be bright if we lay the ground work today and that takes a uniter not a divider.

We have not inherited the past from our founding fathers, but rather are borrowing the future from our children.


Unless prices stay high there will be no impetus to change the fundamentals.

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Unfortunately, this is the same Obama that just threw his pastor of 20 years, and so-called friend, under the bus for political gain. We're supposed to believe that for the past 20 years, Obama had no idea what Black Liberation theology was, nor that his pastor was a leading proponent of that theology.

The moral cowardice and opportunism of Obama's act was breathtaking. When you tie this action to his refusal to stand up for the right to choose, his refusal to stand up for universal healthcare, and his endorsement of private military contractors, it's hard to see this current position on the tax holiday as anything other than a opportunistic attempt to score points against his opponents.

After seeing the way Obama treated his "friend" of 20 years, I certainly wouldn't want him for a "friend." And, we already have a lying, opportunistic coward in the Oval Office. Why do want to put another in there?

Thanks.

mp

And the Clintons threw out their old friend Lani Guinier after she didn't poll well (over a weekend, if I remember!) Give me a break. If you don't like Obama, don't like him. That's cool. But to go against him because he doesn't "value" a friend who mocked him in public! You are being as disingenuous and opportunistic as you accuse him of being.

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