« Some Further Thought on the A-Word Gaffe | The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve's Blog | Obama is "Arrogant:" Two Coded Messages for the Price of One »

A Few Cautionary Thoughts on the "Telecom Cave" Hoohaw


I am not here to defend Obama's evident willingess to vote for a bill with telecom immunity if he can't get one without it.  I do, however, want to suggest that we owe it to ourselves to reserve judgment for a bit before we go loudly putting him onto our "dead to me" lists.  There will be plenty of time for recrimination later, if you're so inclined, and I  may be so inclined myself, eventually.  However, the commenter who wants to retain a reputation (deserved or not) for insight, would do well  to hang back for a bit and wait for this thing to play all the way out  before he or she starts the rending garments and throwing of dust into the air. 

I don't want to suggest we should have blind faith in him.  That's not a good thing, no matter what those who've caricatured his supporters these last several months say about us.  I'm also not foreclosing the possibility that he's about to fuck up hugely, albeit not in a way that will hurt him politiclly. 

There are, however, a few points that seem to have been overrlooked in all the emoting that may be worthy of consideration.  

First consider the likely reason for that a delay in saying anything. To those who live their lives on Internet time, it was infuriating and intolerable. Between the time when news of the compromise broke and yesterday, there was much indignant huffing and stamping of feet.  "What's the hold up?  It's all over the Internet that the bill has a transparently pretextual path that inevitably ends in telecom immunity built into it?  What more do you need to know?" 

Well, personally, knowing what I know about him, and about how he's behaved in the past, I think he wanted to know what else was in the bill.  That's a funny thing about lawyers, and particularly law professors.  Presented with law, or proposed law, they generally prefer to actually read it, or at least read over it, before making judgments about what it says.  I suspect he also wanted to elicit opinions from people he respects, and gather information from people who know stuff we don't--he's in a position get most  questions he has answered now, you see.  Obama has shown a certain sure-footedness in distinguishing what matters have to be dealt with in Internet near-realtime time frames, and what matters can be dealt with with the tradtional TV news cycle timeframe. 

That said, I do not claim I can see into his motives. This may be crassly political.  It could be that he sees he can't stop it and would rather be seen supporting it than be seen not stopping it.  It could be that he read the bill and decided that it gave the president powers that he wanted to have after he wins.  Possibly, his motives are more lofty.  It could be that, he read it and made a considered judgment a constitutional scholar that the provisions in the bill that required the president to get a warrent from the FISA court were more important than letting the telecoms off the hook for enabling warrentless spying.  He may even have decided that we really need the other provisions in the law, even if it costs us giving the telecoms immunity. 

There are two things about his motives, however, I do feel confident about.  One is that he's not doing this because he's scared of being characterized as "weak on terrorism" or because he's pandering to the middle.  I know that because I know a) that he knows that will happen no matter what and b) he's already shown that there is nothing they can throw at him in that vein that he cannot successfully turn back around on them.  Second, I am confident he's not kow-towing to the telecoms.  One thing the fundraising phenom has done is free him from the need to kowtow to anyone, including us, btw--we all give, but everyone's donation is a drop in the bucket.   The telecoms can't buy him the way they bought people like Jay Rockefeller.  The individual contribution limits, combined with the scale, make that impossible. 

I do believe we should consider whether opposition to telecom immunity has become such an integral part of the netroots orthadox catachism that we've forgotten what that fight is actually about. Let us refresh our recollections.  There are two components to this fight.  First, telecom immunity is wrong in and of itself because a federal court has already decided that they should have known what they were doing was illegal and an industry, especially a powerful one, should not be permitted to go to Congress and brazenly buy itself a law nullifying a court decision after the fact.   Let's not be naive.  Plenty of laws are bought and paid for.  All of our intellectual property law, for example, patent, trademark and copyright, is flat-out written by the industries it is supposed to govern and they flagrantly buy that power with campaign contributions.  Telecom immunity, however, is a whole different level of wrong and, in any case, is exactly the kind of thing Obama's movement is supposed to be about ending.

However, let us not forget why the telecoms put on their sensible shoes, grabbed their Visas and went immunity shopping in the first place.  The lawsuit they are trying to shut down was not started because people thought the telecoms needed to be punished for breaking the law--they're not really even seeking much in the way of damages or sanctions.  The lawsuit was started because the EFF and the ACLU decided it was the only means at their disposal to find out what Bush was up to.  Bush isn't demanding telecom immunity because he gives a rat's ass about the telecoms.  He's doing it because he wants to cover his own rat's ass. 

These are related, but separate, things.  Especially if you are Barack Obama at this particular moment in time.  See, the first thing, the wrongness of allowing an industry to buy itself ex post facto immunity will always be wrong, but as to the other, well the oddmakers are giving two to one that, in almost exactly seven months, Obama will himself know all that can be known about what Bush was up to.  So, I can see how, at this point, uncovering what Bush was up to just isn't as big a priority for him, or for that matter, for the Democrats in Congress, as putting some brakes on what he's doing now.  Possibly, he really thinks the inherent wrongness of telecom immunity is a nasty, bitter, pill that can be swollowed for the price of getting some Article III supervison back into the spying program.   

However, if that's what's really going on here, I'll puzzle out how I feel about after it happens.  For now, I'm simply choosing to not foreclose the possibility that there's more going on here than I know.  Time and again, Obama has shown us that he plays a deep damn game.  What he's about has generally been completely opaque to the Republicans and to Hillary's campaign.  What he's really doing has routinely gone right over the MSM Talking Heads, er, heads.  It has frequently eluded the most astute commenters on left-of-center blogs,  Sometimes it has not even been discernable by the most respected and prescient  bloggers.  This may be one of those times.

Or not.  He may just be fucking up royally.  He may even be finally revealing himself to be the Antichrist and this could be the beginning of the tribulation (though if the Rapture has already happened, it sure seems like a lot of fundementalist assholes got Left Behind).  I'm just saying that, for me, this is one of those times when I'd rather pass on an opportunity to tee up an emotionally satisfying "toldja" than risk saying something that will make me look and feel foolish later. 

156 Comments

| Leave a comment

It is Good to see the cooler heads are checking in. I hope people are listening. Yesterday was a bummer, to say the least.

Thank you for a very thought provoking post.

Obama's new "seal of the President already in his own mind" is visible at this idiot thinks he's already the President.

The Democrats have almost nominated a certifiable poop-eating loonie!

Hoo ha! Obamabots are the future... of insanity!

Obama is probably walking around with a crown on his head right now!

Kneel, suckers!

It's a nice seal design. Kudos to the art designer.

I'm glad to see that this piece of artwork has already got some of you Republicans shaking in your boots. The end of your reign of terror threats is approaching. TRHBR

Obama is dancing around his campaign headquarters with a crown on his head, and it's only a matter of time before that lunatic starts eating poop!

Kneel, suckers!

Rec'd. I feel like Obama has demonstrated a keen political mind so far. There have been more than a couple of issues (meeting with leaders of hostile countries for example) where at the time the general response was, "what a dumb idea from an obviously naive rookie" and now they're looking back and saying, "that was genius for the following million reasons."

Either he has something up his sleeve, or like a good chessmaster he's looking 10 moves ahead and sees a benefit here.

I agree, blind faith is not good, but a little trust wouldn't be out of place. He's earned it.

Rec'd. The statement yesterday rubbed me the wrong way, but this guy and his team keep surprising me with their foresight and ability to plan. Wait and watch.

Hello; telecom immunity is not the NOT offensive thing about this bill. The expansion of unaccountable executive spying is at least as obnoxious.

Sorry, there's no way around it: Obama really and truly screwed the pooch on this one. He had an opportunity to lead, and he punted in the most cynical way.

Oh, and for chrissakes this is not about political tactics. Framing it that way is utterly pathetic.

Have you actually read the whole bill? I confess I haven't.

user-pic

George Bush and the Republicans are happy with the bill. What else do you need to know?

Definitely an important danger sign, but I'd prefer something a tad less reactionary. Like, say, actual information about what's in the bill.

user-pic

Now hold on there. What will we argue about if we quit spewing forth reactionary post on issues we have little or no knowlege of?

The people who are reacting are the ones who seem to have the most knowledge on the subject. Those who are less informed, like NCSteve, are whining about people reacting.

user-pic

That would be one opinion. I would caution you to consider wether you were confusing agreement with you for knowlege of the issue. Many a stockbroker has confused a bull market with savy.

I meant to type, NOT the only offensive thing.

Damn, Steve. F'ing insightful - multiple times.

Good on ya. Appreciate the well-thought out contribution. Amidst the screaming and general panic.

The only thing I would add is that governing is a long-term process. You voting for (or against) Obama is short-term.

It may a short-term plus to have the progressives cheering because he took "their" principled stand. But as someone looking ahead to at least 4 years in the White House, it is smarter to think about -- plan -- how FISA would be used in an Obama administration. I'll take long-term for $500...

We've had eight years of short-term thinking and all it's gotten us is stuck in Iraq, an economy in shambles and, well, you know what state we're in...

Thanks for sharing your insight, Steve.

Thank. You.

Good post sir.
I want to repost something I put into one of the more aggressive-whining posts around here with a few edits:

If he shoots the entire bill down, over this aspect(telecom immunity) then what happens?

What laws(that are illegal by the way) stay in effect if this version of FISA does not go into play immediately?
How long would it take to get a new version up to vote?

If it does take a small or large amount of time for a new version to be created, drafted, and sent through the Senate and or House, what will be occuring during that time?

And if you dont know the answer to these questions, I dont think you should be demanding anything from anyone, because you dont know what your talking about, nor what this whole picture and bill is about.

Now I havent read EVERY comment on here about this, but from what I have read between here and Huff Post, MOST(95%, including myself) havent answered ANY of these questions.
Most are just bickering for the sake of it, and havent done really anything to explain why we should be demanding Obama shoot this down, or back away from it, or whatever your major complaint is that you think we should all agree with you on(of course, no one wants telecom immunity, but there is more to it than that, that should be obvious).

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I would like it someone wrote it up explaining the questions I put up by the way, their are a few points I am unclear of and before I make any real decision I think I need to know those facts.

Most Americans don't realize that the FISA compromise comes in two parts. The first part greatly alters FISA by expanding the executive's ability to wiretap and engage in much broader searches of communications than were permissible under the law before. It essentially gives congressional blessing to some but not all of what the executive was doing under President Bush. As President Obama will like having Congress authorize these new powers. He'll like it just fine. People aren't paying as much attention to this part of the bill. But they should, because it will define the law of surveillance going forward. It is where oour civil liberties will be defined for the next decade.

Part II, by contrast, is the part that everyone has gotten up in arms about. It creates effective immunity for telecom companies. It makes perfect sense for Obama to criticize this part of the bill. That's because he doesn't need it as much as he needs the first part, and his base really really dislikes it. True, it might be nice to have retroactive immunity for the players who he will be working with in the future. But remember, Obama expects to be President, and he figures that Justice Department can offer sufficient assurances of legality going forward based on the changes in the first part of the bill.

So, let's sum up: Congress gives the President new powers that Obama can use. Great. (This is change we can believe in). Obama doesn't have to expend any political capital to get these new powers. Also great. Finally, Obama can score points with his base by criticizing the retroactive immunity provisions, which is less important to him going forward than the new powers. Just dandy.

It should now be clear why the Obama campaign has taken the position it has taken. And given this, Obama supporters should be pressing him less on the immunity provisions and more on the first part of the bill which completely rewrites FISA. Because, if he becomes president, he'll be the one applying and enforcing its provisions.

I actually find the wiretapping part of the bill the most troubling. Our privacy is being eroded! While I support Obama, I do not support his position on this bill.

Let me also repost something: This FISA immunity from civil suits is a very minor issue.

1. Bush will certainly grant immunity to telecom executives from criminal charges. Bush and the telecoms will certainly claim a national security exemption from telling the whole truth in civil trials.

2. If the telecoms lose the civil suits, they will have to pay cash penalties that they will then pass on to their customers.

3. The main benefit coming from no immunity is the opportunity to find out what really happened. We can do that with hearings and Justice Department probes in 2009, assuming we don't throw out baby Obama with dirty Bush water.

4. There are far, far more important issues damaging our constitution: habeas corpus, the politicization of the Justice Department, torture, White House crimes regarding Iraq (like leaking and lying), and the politicization of the intelligence agencies. Whether or not telecoms get punished is irrelevant. They spied already. We don't want them spying any more. Tying the hands of future presidents is more productive.

Time to realize that Obama can't possibly satisfy every single one of us. The intersection of our wants is empty.

There are far, far more important issues damaging our constitution

What? This issue is our Constitution! The Fourth Amendment in fact!

user-pic

Overreact much?

Underreact much?

Come here often?

Well, I found this lovely little pdf table that provides a concise summary of all of FISA's provisions and updates from the time it was enacted in 1994 up to the 2006 reauthorization of the Patriot Act:

www.fas.org

I think it's important to see how much of FISA has been in place for a long, long time - way before 9-11. And exactly how it changed after that. And how it's been tweaked. And the specific alterations that are being proposed now.

Yeah, if we're going to object, we should be very specific about exactly what we're objecting to. It's too easy to scream that the bad guy is taking away our Constitutional Rights.

The above link does not include the revisions that are currently in debate, but Wiki has a nice summary of those here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act

user-pic

Thanks for the links.

You're welcome. Correction to statement above - FISA was apparently enacted in 1978, the first entry in the table that I attached is a 1994 amendment.

I applaud the idea to stop obsessing about Obama's motives. What we all should do immediately is educate ourselves about the bill and then hold our public servants to the highest standards, not the lowest. NCSteve, you admit you don't know enough about the bill, and your post confirms this. If I can educate myself about it, you can too. Check out the links in this comment for more info.

This bill should be opposed (and condemned) because it violates the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. In other words, it violates all of our rights.

The lawsuit was started because the EFF and the ACLU decided it was the only means at their disposal to find out what Bush was up to.

Excuse me? I can hardly believe what you wrote. Suing was not the "only means at their disposal." The ACLU sued because Congress didn't do its job.

There are about 40 civilian lawsuits against the telecoms, all of which will be dismissed if this bill passes. The telecom industry faces BILLIONS in damages. Do you think the Senate is going to subject the telecoms to awarding MONEY to each and every one of us? Not likely!

Bush isn't demanding telecom immunity because he gives a rat's ass about the telecoms. He's doing it because he wants to cover his own rat's ass.

And Congress wants to cover their own asses too. That's why it passed in the House (Nancy Pelosi has publicly stated she knew about the illegal surveillance, which, by the way, began before 9/11 and so has nothing to do with the terrorists who attacked us) and will likely pass in the Senate.

Please familiarize yourself with the facts by reading the Top Ten Myths About the Illegal NSA Spying on Americans at the ACLU's website. If you don't get why the Fourth Amendment is relevant even (especially) in a "time of war," watch this.

Who cares about what Obama or anyone thinks. Obama's job is to serve us. You remember, We the People?

user-pic

I didn't quite realize it until now, readytoblow, but for a lot of people the mission seems not to get Obama to serve us but for us to serve Obama.

I feel like I can't hand out brochures on the Constitution fast enough.

Because otherwise I'm too stunned to speak.

user-pic

Yes. I've been hesitant to post on this subject because I can get pretty hot-headed about these quaint "little" matters, like the Constitution, and two branches looking to take power away from the third branch. The only thing that's been holding Bush et al back IS the Courts.

So they want to muzzle them. This should be interesting.

user-pic
I didn't quite realize it until now....but for a lot of people the mission seems not to get Obama to serve us but for us to serve Obama.

Wow! Really destor?! I am really surprised. Aargh, you were acquired and merged by the borg?! Did you really get that carried away and involved that you didn't see that?

What do you think declaring oneself a "supporter" is? You're serving the candidate, working for him/her, it's giving unconditional support to a person or a team. A supporter doesn't question the supportee, a supporter supports, gets behind, cheers on the person or the team, and tries to fight anyone who denigrates that person or team.

This site was basically changed from one of analysis of issues to one of masses of competing "supporters" of two individuals running for president in late February, which then commenced to a battle via advocacy between those partisans. That's what "horse race" is all about. Just like with campaign operatives, which many here were trying to be amateur versions of, few issues were discussed. The idea is not to think about issues, but to support the candidate's thoughts on the issues, and to proceed to a game.

Now all of a sudden people are looking at issues again and thinking about them, and getting all twisted in knots. That's because it's impossible to reconcile that with being a "supporter." If you're a supporter first and foremost, you'll support what your candidate thinks should be done, you won't go thinking about it for yourself, instead, you'll take what he/she thinks and does and try to sell that to others.

On the other hand, if you're simply a voter who likes to stay informed, and never wanted to be part of any politician's campaign, which I would argue is the best and highest use of a democracy, and are not afraid to look at every decision politicans make about issues, and what manipulations his/her "supporters" are using, you have no problem, you've been thinking that way all along.

Getting personally involved in the horse race as an activist is the problem, don't you see? One person can't be a good advocate and a good analyst at exactly the same time. Advocacy is the opposite of objectivity.

Look at the accusations against M.J. Rosenberg on his latest thread. Who can really say that most bloggers here the last couple of months aren't guilty of exactly the same?

BTW, this is why I always questioned Josh Marshall about his old mission statement saying this site was, among other things, for "political activism." Political activism and honest analysis are contrary and opposing. This is something anyone who claims to be a journalist should be thinking about. And another BTW, you're still doing it right now, with an issue rather than an individual. People on this very thread are advocating on an issue while at the same time admitting that they aren't fully informed on the issue. They're doing that based on trust of someone or something, and then they are arguing that the next person should have the same trust.

Wouldn't it be nice if some day a single blog somewhere on the internet devoted itself to informing on the issues (and/or candidate) and trusting that the informed reader will make the right decision rather than trying to convince through uninformed argument games? Why do we even need to know each other's final decisions? What good does that do? How about just helping each other to understand what is really going on rather than having supporter v. supporter wars? It would be so nice if people really thought of declaring oneself as a supporter as the same thing as saying "I am a propagandist for this person or cause." I have nothing against reading propaganda, I do get something from it, I just like to have the purveyor being upfront about it.

user-pic

AP, I think that this comment is in many ways excellent and insightful, but I think that you take the point too far. Activism and analysis are inherently inconsistent, but they're not exclusive. While the devoted activist cannot be a good can analyst and the hard nosed analyst cannot be a devoted activist, it is still possible to be both. A good thing too because it's impossible not to be both. Everyone's an activist at some level, as well as an analyst. Blogs like TPM, emphasize analysis, but they don't promote the fiction that they writers aren't also activists.

As for Destor's point, it's one thing to try to influence Obama and press him to support one's position. It's another to expect him to do so and criticize him for selling out when he does not.

Excuse me? I can hardly believe what you wrote. Suing was not the "only means at their disposal." The ACLU sued because Congress didn't do its job.

I think you're confused by my use of a pronoun. The "they" I was referring to was the ACLU and EFF. No one's aruging that Congress--especially the Bush's rubberstamp Reichstag, but this Congress wins no Profile in Courage awards--didn't totally abrogate its responsibility. I'm just saying that, given that, the only tool the EFF and the ACLU had was a lawsuit against the telecoms. They (the ACLU/EFF) couldn't sue the government or do a FOIA request, right?. They're immune and, even if they weren't would invoke the state secrets privilege.

And Ready? I do know a a little bit about the law. There was never a snowball's chance in Hell the telecoms were going to ever actually have to pay billions in damages. Even without immunity or government resistance. If nothing else, the plaintiffs would have a hard time proving actual damages and, under the Supreme Court punitive damages jurisprudence of recent years, punitive damages are limited to a multiple--a low multiple--of your actual damages.

There was never a snowball's chance in Hell the telecoms were going to ever actually have to pay billions in damages. Even without immunity or government resistance.

If you knew enough about the law, you wouldn't say this because you would understand that the threat of a lawsuit and a court's award, whatever the amount, is a deterrent.

Obviously it wasn't a deterrent; therefore you are incorrect.

No, you're wrong, Ein. You don't understand what Steve is saying or how I responded.

Steve said the awards would never total in the billions. That comment presumes the suits would go before a judge. If the suits went before a judge and the judge ruled on even one case, no matter what the damages, that would create the deterrent.

If no case ever see the light of day, there's no deterrent to breaking the law.

Do you have a J.D. after your name? Because, as it happens, I have one after mine.

user-pic

I've seen no reasoning or argument anywhere that addresses why we need a FISA bill at all. Why is it that the imminent necessity for a new FISA bill is just assumed or implicitly asserted and not openly debated?

user-pic

There won't be time for recriminations later. Later means the lawsuits get thrown out. It means that the telecoms get away with knowingly breaking laws that are decades old and that their victims get no compensation whatsoever. It also effectively guts the 4th Amendment for the Internet age.

I agree with you that Obama should not be "dead" to any Democratic voter over this. But Obama should be put on notice. Don't try to minimize how badly he sold us out.

He hasn't as of yet taken any action.

In February he voted against Telecom immunity. What makes you think he won't work as he said he will.

Telecom immunity is an amendment to the bill.

I gave you kudos before Destor for contacting Hillary and assumed you were doing that across the board.

But now you sound as irrational as you were before Hillary dropped out. Why don't you read the history of the FISA court, it's amendments, current legislation, and the history of the votes behind it. Most people are trying to educate themselves this weekend.


He hasn't as of yet taken any action.

Um, he's the leader of the party now, idiot. He's signaling his approval of the bill, not his disapproval.

Therefore, he is taking action. He's leading the party. This is how it's done.

The Senate will approve the bill.

user-pic

Do you think we see it all? Nothing goes on behind the scenes?

I know it sounds like I'm urging complacent moo-cowness. I'm not. But isn't next week soon enough to blow a gasket? You have to blow one now?

But isn't next week soon enough to blow a gasket? You have to blow one now?

Why wait? Inform yourself about the bill over the weekend, then call your senators on Monday and tell them to vote no before the vote, not after.

I've read so many misinformed comments in every thread that it seemed reasonable and timely to blow now.

I can assure you Gasket, that none of these people are licensed to produce, reproduce or otherwise transmit misinformation.

And as Secretary of Misinformation, I can further assure you that I'm taking their names (and their tiny little pictures), and the taps should be in place Sunday.

There will no immunity.

Rock on.

P.S That Constitution pamphlet you gave me this aft? That was INCREDIBLE!! Who knew we had one of them??

I'd vote for it. Damn straight. And I think a lot of other people would too. You should float that Constitution idea of yours, maybe at your next local Democratic Policy meeting. Damn catchy idea.

A Constitution for ALL! (I bet Obama goes for it in a flash.)

You probably can't blow because of those tubes, huh?

Naw. The doc said I had to stay calm til Labor Day. That's why I'm hangin' here. Soothing.

Don't worry though. Be happy. Doc Obama was just through, and he ASSURED me these taps, errr, tubes, would be out in on time.

user-pic

Well of course. That goes without saying. But, I wasn't talking about waiting before calling my representatives to urge them to vote no. I was talking about waiting before blowing a gasket.