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Obama already flip-flopping on Kyl-Lieberman
In Barack Obama's speech before AIPAC today, in addition to saying he would do anthing in his power to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, he also said
the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, who Quds Forces have rightly been labeled a terrorist organization. Senator Barack Obama's Spoken Remarks before AIPAC on June 4th 2008 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/us/politics/04text-obama-aipac.html?pagewanted=5&sq=aipac&st=nyt&scp=3which sounds remarkably similar to
that the united States should designate Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foriengn terrorist organization...and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Terrorsts. Kyl-Liberman Amendmentyet inconsistent with
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/kyl-lieberman-amendment/?resultpage=8&
Obama opposed the Kyl-Lieberman amendment. Barack Obama's website
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy/#iran
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It is the authorization to use force without the consent of Congress that Obama opposes.
NOT the labeling of the Qud forces as a terrorist organization.
That's the usual conundrum of some legislation. Hopefully we can get past this type of Catch-22 type of legislation into single issue bills.
June 4, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
My ass, exchange of turd blossoms. This is just the first of many flip flops to come. You've been had. And the con artist knows you can never admit it.
June 4, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kyl-Lieberman was a Sense of the Senate Resolution. It nowhere says that the President is authorized to attack Iran.
The AUMF was passed by both the House & Senate, and expressly authorized the President to use military force against the armed forces of Iraq.
June 4, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unsurprising. Get ready for Barack version 2.0
June 4, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
It doesn't say "attack" but to use "force" whatever that means.
DUH!!! The armed forces of Iraq. Who do you think they were talking about?
June 4, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please point out where in Kyl-Lieberman, the Senate unilaterally authorized the President to use force comparable to the AUMF.
June 4, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't raise that argument. You're mish mashing the two.
June 4, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kyl-Lieberman:
(2) that it is a critical national interest of the United States to prevent the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran from turning Shi'a militia extremists in Iraq into a Hezbollah-like force that could serve its interests inside Iraq, including by overwhelming, subverting, or co-opting institutions of the legitimate Government of Iraq
AUMF Iraq:
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
AUMF gives authority to the president to 'defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq.' The 2nd clause in the quoted portion of Kyl-Lieberman makes keeping Iran 'from turning Shi-a militia extremists in Iraq
The authority given to the president to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq" is still in place. This clause from Kyl-Lieberman states that preventing the government of Iran "from turning Shi'a militia extremists in Iraq into a Hezbollah-like force" is a "critical national interest," meaning it affects our national security. If such a Hezbollah-like force came about, it would be contributing to the "continuing threat" posed by Iraq.
June 4, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I mashed enter too early, so you get a bonus note paragraph.
June 4, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you disagree. As far as you're concerned, the IRG can furnish all the weapons and training they want to to the Shia militias in Iraq.
June 4, 2008 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't recall ever giving a rundown on what I think should happen with Iran. The question was asked how Kyl-Lieberman could be used as justification for the use of force in Iran, and I tried to answer that.
June 4, 2008 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
And let's not get this all convoluted.
Kyl-Lieberman was a "green light" to go INSIDE Iran for the IRG forces.
June 4, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Green Light?
You mean like these
June 4, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you think deflection helps with the base of your post argument.
June 4, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's it. I've decided you are just too dumb to talk to. Please let Obama explain himself. You just confuse yourself and make things worse.
June 4, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are 3 2 candidates who are wrong on the Middle East. Obama is the least wrong.
June 4, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
That "3" is supposed to be struck through... I hate this socalled ability to "use HTML tags for style".
June 4, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
This isn't a flip-flop. Obama cosponsored S.970 to declare the IRGC a terrorist organization way back in 2007. That was not the portion of Kyl-Lieberman he disagreed with.
But oh lordy, I guess I've been had by the con man. It couldn't possibly be that some folks aren't up on his record and are just filling in with assumptions to fit their narrative.
June 4, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not a flip-flop?
Given that Obama also said he would do anything in hiw power to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.
Or as another TPMer said Obama commits to Eternal War
June 4, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
And if he said "Nah, really, it's cool with me if Iran has nukes," what then?
June 4, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
btw, what's with labeling every policy you disagree with a "flip flop"? There is no flip flop here; critique the policy and let's have a real discussion. Don't wag your finger over something that's been on his policy page for over a year.
June 4, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Abbas Slams Obama Jerusalem comment
Lieberman: Where where you Obama during the primary?
June 4, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still waiting for the flip-flop.
June 4, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right.
Obama only wants a war with Iran if he gets to start it.
June 4, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
On the contrary, I think he takes a rather conservative view of his executive power to declare war.
But sure, let's stick with pithy statements and tunnel-vision politics when discussing the Middle East. It's obvious you aren't familiar with Obama's stances in that regard, so there really isn't much else to cover.
June 4, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Disingenuousness doesn't suit you, demosaur. I believe you know it has been an article of faith in the Obama camp that, although he didn't vote on Kyle-Lieberman, he opposed labeling the Iranian Guard a terrorist organization because he viewed it as a step toward war with Iran. I don't recall you objecting when your fellow Obama supporters represented Hillary's vote in favor as war mongering.
But before we continue, please share what you think Obama objected to about Kyle-Lieberman if not to the general idea of ratcheting up the rhetoric as a step toward war.
I think Obama is going to have to pivot from the Progressive wing now if he is going to have a chance in the election. Did you really think he could continue to satisfy you and win the general election? You may have to view some of what he says as wink wink. Know what I mean?
June 4, 2008 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not being disingenuous here. Before I continue, let me make this clear: Personally, I don't agree with Obama on Iran. He is to the right of me on how to handle them. I think he pandered to AIPAC, and I think the other candidates do likewise.
My point of contention here is that this is being mislabelled as a flip-flop. I'm sorry, but that's completely ignorant. His detractors are flat-out wrong when they say he'll capitulate to Iran, just as his supporters are wrong if they were single-issue voting for him because they thought he wouldn't engage in the same sort of swaggering and aggressive posturing we tend to do with much of our foreign policy there.
Valid criticisms of today's speech to AIPAC would be that he was pandering, that he was doing a bit of saber-rattling, and that he is misguided if he thinks we can hold any legitimacy at large in the Middle East if we continue to turn a blind eye to Israel's many abuses.
It was not, however, flip-flopping. Referring to S.970 was not enough, apparently -- people don't want to look it up for themselves. I'll quote:
(6) It is in the national security interests of the United States to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapons capability.
(7) The United States should use all political, economic, and diplomatic tools at its disposal to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapons capability.
.....
The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189)
So if people are shocked at his comments today, it's simply because they weren't paying attention earlier. And then they express that shock by implying that those of us who support Obama are the ones not abreast of the issues? It's ridiculous.
So when you say "he opposed labeling the Iranian Guard a terrorist organization because he viewed it as a step toward war with Iran" I have to laugh because Obama has co-sponsored a bill which labels the Iranian Guard a terrorist organization. Why did he support S.970 and not Kyl-Lieberman? There is much you could read on the fundamental differences between the bills (or, you know, even read the full text of each bill yourself) but I'll cop-out by linking to Dodd's explanation. My own impression is that Obama opposed Kyl-Lieberman because it has too much muddy language intermingling its resolutions with Iran's involvement in Iraq and that opens it up to abuse. You want to talk about rhetoric ratcheting up the march to war, read Kyl-Lieberman and then contrast it with S.970.
Finally, quit operating under the assumption that all of Obama's supporters are 100% with him all the way. There's only one guy who agrees with Obama on every position, and he's running for president. Like I said, I'm not on board with him here -- but I'll also say this: I have more faith in Obama pursuing aggressive diplomacy than I did in any of the other candidates. That's enough to 'satisfy' this Progressive.
June 4, 2008 7:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Foiled by blockquotes once again. Though it's likely obvious in context, I'll just note that I'm quoting from the first block down to "So if people..."
June 4, 2008 7:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
And because I love replying to myself and my link was broken: Dodd on the difference between Kyl-Lieberman and S.970
June 4, 2008 7:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
High five that one, dude.
June 4, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Recommended. I have in the past stated that TPMEC is not a site for the promotion of Obama, but for political junkie debate about the election. That said, there is no reason for us not to have this discussion.
It would be ingenuous to assume that the designation in Kyl Lieberman could and would not have been abused by this administration, which is what ultimately mattered.
Evidently, the bill sponsors would have had no problem with such abuse.
June 4, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a slippery slope. So Kyl-Lieberman would be a good thing as long as Bush weren't President. If we follow that argument, where? I love it. If we follow that thought, we should be safe making Obama dictator for life. He has the requisite judgment. Yes?
June 4, 2008 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just to play the other side a bit, I recall you justifying Hillary's Iraq AUMF vote by saying that she made it in good faith based on the history, UN resolutions, even going so far as to wonder, "What signs did she miss?" So it seems that judgment of the Executive, especially when it comes to the willingness to abuse power, is exceedingly relevant, is it not?
Again, I'm just playing the other side here. None of us know exactly what Obama will do at this point, but I don't think you get to have this argument both ways.
June 5, 2008 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Demosaur--
It's all part of the conspiracy. Every move he has ever made has been calculated to lead up to this point, and the only way to decipher his brilliantly maniacal plan is to parse every word he has ever spoken. By dissecting votes and policies, the terrifying Obamastein monster mashup of minutiae is revealed!
June 4, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would hardly call Obama's speech before AIPAC today minutiae.
June 4, 2008 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Circle jerk in any instance cause fact is we ain't going into Iran any time soon. Moot point. Move on...
June 4, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
We won't do anything if they convince the inspectors they've given up the program. If they follow the Hussein route and bluff, they will at least get bombed.
June 4, 2008 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let the kids have their victory before forcing them to take a closer look.
June 4, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
And let the -- what, geriatrics? -- have their fun detracting before forcing them to take any look whatsoever.
June 4, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
oooooooo!
June 4, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
NPR reported that Obama was wearing an Israeli-American flag pin when giving his speech.
Touché
June 4, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh no! Obama is a secret Jew, as well as a secret Muslim!
June 4, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with Headzup! Stating that a group has terrorist tendencies is a hell of a lot different than VOTING for it to come under the GWB War On Terror umbrella of unalateral attacks on any nation we don't like.
June 4, 2008 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. Is your point that Obama missed the Kyl-Lieberman vote? Just follow your leader here. Axelrod has decided the damage from flipping is a lot less than the damage from letting the Jewish community think Obama is soft on Iran. Get used to it. First of many to come as he moves to the center where the general election votes are. You got him this far. He needs new friends now.
June 4, 2008 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I addressed this in greater length up-thread, but it bears repeating:
There has been no movement.
June 4, 2008 7:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure there has. Everyone sees it. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but Obama has moved to the Kyl-Lieberman position. Conveniently, he has no record of voting against Kyl-Lieberman, so he and his supporters can engage in word play about bills that Obama co-sponsored and whether they call the IRG terrorists as Kyl-Lieberman does or not. AIPAC is not stupid. If Obama's proposed legislation did it for them, he wouldn't have had to go the Kyl-Lieberman route today. As far as Obama's position on Iran, we'll have to see. We have been engaged with Iran for a long time. We've killed and helped kill Iranians no doubt and they have killed and helped kill Americans. Frankly, I don't care what happens to Shiite fanatics. My guess is we'll have to deal with them some day and most of the Middle East won't care. I do care about the con of playing the Progressive wing of the Party and young voters on the Iranian issue, then flipping on unconditional summits and the IRG after the nomination is sewed up.
June 4, 2008 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Show me the flop, Billy.
June 4, 2008 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Show me the difference between Kyl-Lieberman and what Obama said today.
June 4, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
From Bill Burton's statement regarding Obama's no-vote on Kyl-Lieberman:
Kyl-Lieberman ties Iran up in Iraq policy. His speech today, and his record on Iran, do not.
Commentary on his AIPAC speech from March 2, 2007:
This is his position, and has been his publicly stated position for quite a while. His position is certainly something you can be justifiably critical about -- I am, myself! -- but it has been a consistently stated position and if people are ignorant about his policy the onus is on them.
June 4, 2008 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
And before you point it out, yes, I mistyped in regards to 'no vote'.
June 4, 2008 8:59 PM | Reply | Permalink