Nine what ? The total number of the riddle? Are you adding this
to the numbers added so far?
So 41.
9 is a very good number. You have done well. Might be worth breaking down the complete proof.
This reminds me of the SAW rule in math class. Show all work, they say. Sometimes I would just know the answer.
But here goes:
1,2,3,5,6,7. 24.
Horse takes 2 steps back. 4 legs. So 8.
And that crazy potter. The church is the Old Dutch one in Sleepy Hollow. Irving lived up the street in Sunnyside. Andre was captured there with the note in his shoe for Arnold. It's all on Route 9. So the pot is 9.
24, 8, and 9.
41.
Irving lived in a house called Sunnyside Manor, but the street works. How clever.
This is a very good proof. I would ask also that you deal with the line in the poem that includes "count the head attached."
So how does pot no. 9 follow from the original poem? Where there was nothing about churches or roads...
I couldn't be had without the three clues. I'll go through it, but first I want to hear about the "head attached."
Oh, and if the horse takes two steps back, why not subtract 8 from 24 instead of adding it?
Typical code guy. ;)
Seriously though, I couldn't get anywhere near it till the clues and Countman got the horse. I thought the pot was 2 also.
The thing about the head I still have no idea. I'm gonna go read it again later. I'm trying to tie the other stuff back to the original one. That Levi is one crafty character.
You have me there. I didn't occur to me. But should have. I lose points for that. I figured just counting steps, but in counter numbers one would count minus numbers. Stupid live.
At some point, I thought of the thing as a video game where you try things to see if they work. A better form might be to stage the proofs at each point.
I'm happy that Hillary figured out that pot number. I was completely lost on that. I would like some credit for getting across the bridge and getting the horse back in 8 steps. Not that I'm vain. :)
Countman ! But of course you have that. It takes a village. Hillary is has some very good skills in tracking down clues as you see.
She's started her own riddle. I can't make anything of it yet.
Can I play?
Yes. We are just trying to tie up this last thing, and Hillary has her own thing she's started up.
I can't do it now, but i will do the whole poem ande how I did it/
Codegen, you can tell me where I messed up.
T
I don't know about "messed up". My problem is that I have seen way too many puzzles and riddles and I have a tendency to look for patterns where there aren't necessarily any.
That said, good puzzles need to be debugged, because what's obvious to the creator isn't necessarily obvious to the puzzled ones.
As an aside, a particularly tricky problem occurs when designing puzzles for an international audience. It's very easy to slip in cultural references that will be incomprehensible to people coming from other countries or more or less different cultures. For example the Sleepy Hollow story is not necessarily well known outside the US.
A few points in no particular order.
If a pot is numbered too, it's hard to escape the conclusion that it is numbered 2.
I mentioned the horse already; if the steed went forth twice instead of going back twice, there would be no ambiguity.
The first six strophes are very regular in form; the rest is not. Does that have any meaning? I guess not, but it made me wonder.
One two three could be 123 as easily as 1+2+3.
Count the head attached. Is that the horse's head?
Great river runs left/great treasure lies right sounds like it might be significant (left/right). Probably isn't.
Only one pot is hot. It's numbered too. And the wrong bridge is a road without treasure. I give three clues if asked. Is the 1,2,3 sequence significant? Probably not.
when i wrote "counting words" in the poem, i meant that particular attention should paid to words, not actually counting them, but taking account of them.
You had to "count" the spelling of the word.
Thus a "pot numbered too" means a "pot numbered also"
But a "pot numbered two" would have been counted 2.
That meant in my mind that the pot had to have a different number.
"I mentioned the horse already; if the steed went forth twice instead of going back twice, there would be no ambiguity."
Yes. And on a game one might have some door open when it's done that way. I was trying to lead the mind away from the horses 4 steps...and thought backwards would do that.
"The first six strophes are very regular in form; the rest is not. Does that have any meaning? I guess not, but it made me wonder."
I thought about that as it developed but was too (two?) lazy to do it. I really just started the poem and let the game come to me without planning too much. A better way would go back over and make some sense of it Nine stanzas would have been cute.
Here's the poem, and later I will go through it.
Code is seed, at least for foals,
Mode is speed to feast on trolls,
A knight lies slain.
Which of thee dwell 'neath the crossing,
Who picks tea among the tossing,
No leaf tells.
Orion knows and counts them madly,
One two three and more quite gladly
Trolls know trolls.
The code is in the counting.
The steed won't stop for mounting.
How then ride?
To count one rides beyond the glen.
Counting words, not trolls not men.
How then count?
One two three and then skip four,
Go again and then skip more,
Gaze and write.
The Troll's Riddle is a Number:
You cannot pass without a fee. Pay me and cross.
But not the steed. To get the beast across I need another fee. Steed moves back twice. Count the head attached.
A great river runs left. And once across, a great treasure lies right beyond the forest. But at the forest's edge is the graveyard. The wrong number lands you there, another troll's feast.
You can't make the right tea in the wrong pot. Only one pot is hot. It's numbered too. And the wrong bridge is a road without treasure. I give three clues if asked. One at a time. Fees plus pot then. All is seen from high above.
I roam now with perfect measure.
And in a form I take with pleasure:
Count me right and that's the treasure.
"You cannot pass without a fee. Pay me and cross.
But not the steed. To get the beast across I need another fee. Steed moves back twice. Count the head attached.
A great river runs left. And once across, a great treasure lies right beyond the forest. But at the forest's edge is the graveyard. The wrong number lands you there, another troll's feast."
Well sports fans, I never said that this was solved did I? I just said that 9 was a good number.
I was just hoping for someone to come up with the final solution so that I could hit myself on the head and wonder why I hadn't seen the solution when it was so blindingly obvious...
No such luck :)
One two three could be 123 as easily as 1+2+3.
Count the head attached. Is that the horse's head?
I DON'T KNOW...WHAT DO YOU THINK? FOLLOW WORDS CLOSELY TO EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITY
Great river runs left/great treasure lies right sounds like it might be significant (left/right). Probably isn't.
WELL, since the other clues were real, why would you imagine that the rest of it isn't. If there are real people and real places, I might think that a great river on the Left and treasure on the right and all that stuff is true.
I also didn't say that the Dutch Church was right, cause it's the wrong church. Hillary found 9 through real people and events.THere's still more to find.
I HAVEN"T SAID THAT IT'S SOLVED. I JUST SAID THAT 9 WAS THE POT. AND SAID THAT EVERYTHING UP TO HORSE WAS RIGHT.
There is more to it. Until someone tries a proof which I think is now ALL THERE in the clues, it's no solved.
I didn't say the final number was right. I asked for a proof.
I have to put the other clues in here b/c its too confusing to keep going back and forth from here to there.
The pot comes from a potter who named all his pots with the same number taken from a road on which he lived many years ago. He lived next to a church whose rites came about from a King's desire for a Queen.
He asked for a clue to the pot which I gave. I offer you this clue.
Benedict Arnold
You have to find the number of the pot, given by the potter from the street on which he lives, next to the old church whose rites resulted from a desire for a queen.
You have the clue (1)Benedict Arnold and now (2) Major John Andre.
No charge for this: The church is south of the bridge.
A member of the church lives at Sunnyside.
Ok. So Sunnyside, were we talking about Irving at Sunnyside Manor?
Oh wait. Ok. Irving went to two churchs there. First Zion Episcopal and then Christ Episcopal.
Oh Jesus. Ok, I just had that moment where I realize I'm an idiot. We're talking about Sleepy Hollow and I'm mystified by "count the head attached."
I'm googling the most random things and missing whats right in front of my face. The bloody Headless Horseman.
Damn Drifter! How did I not see that???
So the bridge. Something happened there. I'm trying to drag this story from the depths of my memory but it's not coming....
Sucks that I know almost nothing about either Benedict Arnold or Sleepy Hollow (and Washington Irving).
"All is seen from high above" may mean looking at a map.
Okay, the King with desire for a Queen was probably Solomon. Solomon's Temple is referred to as Zion, and the Zion Episcopal Church in Tarrytown (which Irving used to go to) is south of the Tappan Zee Bridge. Assuming the "great river" is Hudson.
The great treasure might refer to the US Mint located in West Point, but that seems a bit of a stretch.
OK. I never knew the Solomon connection. So that is a good proof.
I didn't know that Irving went to any church other than Christ Episcopal --so in my mind, the rites that came about from" the desire for a queen" referenced the Church of England when old Henry wanted to marry Anne Boleyn. That became of the Episcopal Church. There's another connection there, awaiting someone's discovery. But the Solomon proof works, and is new to me on several levels. Well done !
The great river is of course the Hudson. The bridge wasn't there back then. You need another bridge, but there might be some very very small bridges that don't show up on a modern map, but still figure in the story.
Interesting thing about West Point would be that Benedict Arnold had command there when he became a traitor. The treasure is off to the right from the bridge. I don't think the bridge will be on any map today.
OH. When I mentioned above that the bridge was not there back then, I meant the Tappan Zee Bridge across the Hudson-- built in the 1950's. Washington Irving's time a bit earlier.
OK. The bridge is described in one account, and can be pinpointed by that description. So I ain't gotta give it to ya....
This is all about an hour from me. I should go there sometime. Lyndhurst looks beautiful. Come to think of it, someone I know may have been married there.
"Irving notes in The Legend of Sleepy Hollow that the route of the Albany post road was not always to the west of the church."
Seems relevant?
Christ Episcopal Church is right on Albany Post Rd (9) and on the west side of it. It's possible that the road ran south of it long ago, I can imagine a route. But I sure think that bridge is right where it has always been.
The wiki article "Legend of Sleepy Hollow places it, and I imagine on a map or google earth.
I think the "treasure at the Right" is the last interesting tid-bit,
so we'll see.
I'm ready to reveal the rest....it's draggin on.
Hillary, you have all the info you need to do the numbers, why don't you...you have all of it
WHO is going to make a good riddle/puzzle for me? Come on now, you guys can do it !
Nevermind. I missed the bit about the Hudson. My eyes are starting to blur which means I have to step back from the computer now.
the game is over part 1
Seems like this played out. And most everything has been discovered Here's a proof with a few holes.
Add together:
1,2,3,5,6,7,
horse 8
head ?
pot 9
Story. "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" by Washington Irving.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Sleepy_Hollow
Washington Irving lived at Sunnyside Manor. In my account he attended Christ Episcopal Church, on Rt 9 and North of Sunnyside.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_of_Tarrytown
Both of you found another Church --Zion, and it is mentioned in the Wiki. Christ Church is a place people visit to pay hommage to Irving. Codegen suggested something completely new...that the desire for the Queen was about Solomon.
My case for "rites" and denomination. Henry/Boleyn creates Anglican Church of England--in America, Episcopalian.
The bridge's location in the story.
I find this whole story painful
Nah. I learned something about Washington Irving, Arnold & Andre (fascinating story), and about the outskirts of NYC.
I heard that the redcoat bastard Arnold married some fancy lady who was really a redcoat woman anyways. He was general I don't hold with no traitor, no how, now way. Too bad that bastard got back to England...I'll bet they treated there like crap. No one likes a traitor.
What did you find out about them then redcoats from the city?
Were there plenty of those turn-coats livin' near that Manor..
I'm a thinkin' that you done found yourself some other turn-coats..
where you been a'reading?
Blames it on the wife ! Typical. At least he can't read or write. I wonder if someone did write an account of this time from a woman's point of view. Who married Irving? That's a fine house.
I bit too frilly for me, durn it. But I remember trails --that's my job-- and I do remember that Albany Post Road. Might have gone down the hill before that durn Church, but I think it was the fancy church was at the riverside if the trail.
Me and plenty of the young boys didn't like that Washington Irving nor all then kind. They made us clear shit from their stables and kept our folks poor working on their growing patches which weren't no durn good for food...just some plant they brought on a boat from red-coat country.
I wish we had kicked all those Tories out or hung the whole lot of them, and burned down any damd house called a manor.
We didn[t want to live in "New England"...we were the real Americans, dagnabbit, and we wanted the trail west.
I do like this new fangled Google Earth thing though. Let's me follow trails from high above. And durn it, i'm a looking at that road now, and i'll be a dead shit mule skinner if I can't see some statue of the boys that robbed the Tory spy Andre, right there on the very spot. It's in a park at the left. They knew that high-falootin english fop had money. He were a redcoat --them boys seen that. Hope they robbed him good. hope they got some kind of medal for turning him over to General Washington. hope them boys saw 'em hang too... and all them people what came to watch him, a 'cried a fore him with hankies when he went to speech-a-fying..--that were another durn reason to go west. Hankies" Shee--it.
i coud read a bit, and took that headless horseman book with me.. durn it, as i see it, the whole damn story should be retold today from the horse's view....
Using this Google Earth Thing, damned if I don't see that durn bridge a ways down that road and the crick. And durn it, that little bridge is right a-fore that fancy place they buried them rich folks.
Might have rode up there to the right into those woods, now that I see them today...hunt a few dear. Think i can make out a few of them still..
What's that? You say there's some treasure up there. Don't see
and don't believe it. No story about treasure back then, and that would be a story I would remember back then, and went a 'looking for.." Maybe that fop Washington Irving buried some of his money up there. And I don't think he wrote the story neither.. I think he stole it from some good old boy who knew them parts long before that Sunnyside Manor was built.
Partner..if you go that Sunnyside Manor, keep low, because them rooms are mighty small.
I see on the Google that the little bridge is over that good stream, the one that flows West to the Hudson, turns that Mill Wheel still there.
But durn it, that stream looks a bit puny now. Too many eastern folks put wells up in thar hills, took the good water too. Took down the beaver and fox for trapping. All trapped out then. A few still around I guess...the lucky ones. Gotta respect all the beasts in God's Garden. Wonder if them that's there today could trace their blood a-back to fox-spirits.
Nice country back then. Kinda small compared to the mountains west, and the old trails we learnt from the indians...the Mohegans were long gone by then, the ones that trapped in the Pocontico, one of stayed on a made a movie...durn it
This durn Google is a trail blazer ain't it?
You want to tell the story from the viewpoint of the horse? Any other choices there? "Partner.."
Typical...
I guess the headless horseman didn't have much of a viewpoint.
He had "views" about women. Didn't treat them well. At least Jonnie Depp was good in the movie.
Partner. I ain't a callin' you by your Christian name--looks a bit foreign, but partner, wherever you live, well I 'spect that you are a good old boy.
If you can crack a joke for these hankie lovin' tea drinkin' book types, you could be a real mule-skinner --and a'welcome in the bunk house. We got a lot of you poor foreign boys over here. You done good too. Darn good. But I can't make no sense of that mountain man we called "Mad McGregor" ..what with the way he wants his Apache woman to make some skirt for him.
Some of the boys are a'scarred to go hunting with Mad Mac up the brokeback trail--mountain man in a dress. Shee....it.
But partner, I guess you could follow them fancy maps they make these days... got all the trails me and the boys learned from the indians.
or a number
OK boys...good to parlay (that be indian talk from up canada way).
I'm headin' to a stomp down. Yippee. Gonna fiddle them American tunes, not no redcoat songs, durn it.
My Dear Clark:
I send you herewith a plan of a rural cemetery projected by some of the worthies of Tarrytown, on the woody hills adjacent to the Sleepy Hollow Church. I have no pecuniary interest in it, yet I hope it may succeed, as it will keep that beautiful and umbrageous neighborhood sacred from the anti-poetical and all-leveling axe. Besides, I trust that I shall one day lay my bones there. The projectors are plain matter-of-fact men, but are already, I believe, aware of the blunder which they have committed in naming it the “Tarrytown,” instead of the “Sleepy Hollow” Cemetery. The latter name would have been enough of itself to secure the patronage of all desirous of sleeping quietly in their graves.
I beg you to correct this oversight, should you, as I trust you will, notice this sepulchral enterprise.
I hope as the spring opens you will accompany me in one of my brief visits to Sunnyside, when we will make another trip to Sleepy Hollow, and (thunder and lightning permitting) have a colloquy among the tombs.
Yours, very truly,
Washington Irving
New York, April 27, 1849
Donnerpass has the best stories. And clues all wrapped up in the memory of the trail...
So that's where Irving is buried. And...
It looks like Carnegie, Chrysler, and Rockefeller are also there. And Elizabeth Arden. Hell, I would have guessed Carnegie was buried in PA.
Google Goddess. All Blue People Bow.
"Sleepy Hollow Cemetery surrounds the Old Dutch Burying Ground, the spot identified in The Legend of Sleepy Hollow as the resting place of the headless horseman. Washington Irving is laid to rest in the southern end of the cemetery in a plot overlooking the old church and its burying ground. Other famous individuals buried in Sleepy Hollow Cemetery include Andrew Carnegie, Walter Chrysler, William Rockefeller, and Elizabeth Arden. Pick up a free map of the grounds at the cemetery office located about 1/4 mile north of the Old Dutch Church on Route 9 (North Broadway)."
Just thinking out loud here...
You can see the cemetery on google. I don't have Google Earth downloaded on this computer but you can still see it with the maps. Pretty damn huge.
Can a head be buried there? Does it cost more or less?
Riddle over? Don't we still need a number?
duh.....
Whoa. Google paired up with the Wiki? You can click on the map for brief Wiki's of the places there.
I could never really get into modern architecture. This was always more my style.
We took a field trip to Fallingwater way back when. Overrated, in my opinion. The ceilings are so low.
The fact that it's on a waterfall is undeniably cool, however.
Ommm...Ommm.....Ommmm
On a random tangent, I'm wondering why Carnegie was buried in Sleepy Hollow. His name jumps out at me the most b/c Pittsburgh is my home town.
Interesting story related to him is the story of the Johnstown Flood and the South Fork Hunting and Fishing Club. Really captures the dynamic between the working class and the wealthy in that time.
story?
Kykuit (rhymes with "high cut") is a word of Dutch origin meaning "lookout" or "high point".
I suspect at this point I'm really just talking to myself.
I'm here, Hillary. You might need a rest after all that. But many thanks for all this !
You may be, but it's fun to listen.
Lady. Many a time I've had a choice for a parlay. Me and the horse, me and the mule, or me and me. Turns out the damn mule is the best conversater.
Told me joke about a horse. And you know that mules love to tell jokes about horses.
Horse walks into a bar. The bartender looks at the horse and says
"why the long face?"
Well lady, what kind of joke can horse tell on a mule. That might be my point, but it seems like a joke itself. I'll get back to you when I talk to the horse.
story?
All these stories, so fun to know'em
I'm too brain drained to write a poem
Rich peope love modern houses. When they don't they don't they just go to their cozy traditional
country house.
Look at all this good stuff I missed. Had to drift off few a couple days.
I've always had a thing for pre-modern forms of architecture myself. Better lines. More intricacy. Just grabs my eye.
The Pyramide at the Louvre is a disaster. Anything that obstructs the view of the original building would be, in my opinion. Musee D'Orsay a great building. Used to be a train station back in the day. You can tell in that one big room.
One of these days, I'd like to just spend days wandering around Italy just watching the lines of the buildings.
Here? What's good. Let's see. The NY library. Wright's got something out in Arizona that's not quite my style but the stonework is incredible. Mostly random buildings, I guess. The ones that catch your eye when you drive past them. Unnamed. Just the lines left in your memory.
Drifter. Great stuff.
What happened to code? Must be working.
Countman, Code, Hillary, would someone please add up the numbers, finally ? I need closure. I'll beg then:
Walking then on secret waters,
First to tombs and then to forest,
He counted.
Days of youth would soon be none,
He would read the great John Donne,
He counted.
No answers but the word
Every number heard
Counting, still counting.
This is a continuation of the off-thread stuff at the bottom of
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/citizen-journalism.php
400 comments too long to load.
June 18, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
9.
June 18, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nine what ? The total number of the riddle? Are you adding this
to the numbers added so far?
June 18, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
So 41.
June 18, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
9 is a very good number. You have done well. Might be worth breaking down the complete proof.
June 18, 2008 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
This reminds me of the SAW rule in math class. Show all work, they say. Sometimes I would just know the answer.
But here goes:
1,2,3,5,6,7. 24.
Horse takes 2 steps back. 4 legs. So 8.
And that crazy potter. The church is the Old Dutch one in Sleepy Hollow. Irving lived up the street in Sunnyside. Andre was captured there with the note in his shoe for Arnold. It's all on Route 9. So the pot is 9.
24, 8, and 9.
41.
June 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Irving lived in a house called Sunnyside Manor, but the street works. How clever.
This is a very good proof. I would ask also that you deal with the line in the poem that includes "count the head attached."
June 18, 2008 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
So how does pot no. 9 follow from the original poem? Where there was nothing about churches or roads...
June 18, 2008 7:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't be had without the three clues. I'll go through it, but first I want to hear about the "head attached."
June 18, 2008 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, and if the horse takes two steps back, why not subtract 8 from 24 instead of adding it?
June 18, 2008 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Typical code guy. ;)
June 18, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously though, I couldn't get anywhere near it till the clues and Countman got the horse. I thought the pot was 2 also.
The thing about the head I still have no idea. I'm gonna go read it again later. I'm trying to tie the other stuff back to the original one. That Levi is one crafty character.
June 18, 2008 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have me there. I didn't occur to me. But should have. I lose points for that. I figured just counting steps, but in counter numbers one would count minus numbers. Stupid live.
At some point, I thought of the thing as a video game where you try things to see if they work. A better form might be to stage the proofs at each point.
June 18, 2008 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm happy that Hillary figured out that pot number. I was completely lost on that. I would like some credit for getting across the bridge and getting the horse back in 8 steps. Not that I'm vain. :)
June 18, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Countman ! But of course you have that. It takes a village. Hillary is has some very good skills in tracking down clues as you see.
She's started her own riddle. I can't make anything of it yet.
June 18, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can I play?
June 18, 2008 7:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. We are just trying to tie up this last thing, and Hillary has her own thing she's started up.
I can't do it now, but i will do the whole poem ande how I did it/
Codegen, you can tell me where I messed up.
T
June 18, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know about "messed up". My problem is that I have seen way too many puzzles and riddles and I have a tendency to look for patterns where there aren't necessarily any.
That said, good puzzles need to be debugged, because what's obvious to the creator isn't necessarily obvious to the puzzled ones.
As an aside, a particularly tricky problem occurs when designing puzzles for an international audience. It's very easy to slip in cultural references that will be incomprehensible to people coming from other countries or more or less different cultures. For example the Sleepy Hollow story is not necessarily well known outside the US.
June 19, 2008 8:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
A few points in no particular order.
If a pot is numbered too, it's hard to escape the conclusion that it is numbered 2.
I mentioned the horse already; if the steed went forth twice instead of going back twice, there would be no ambiguity.
The first six strophes are very regular in form; the rest is not. Does that have any meaning? I guess not, but it made me wonder.
One two three could be 123 as easily as 1+2+3.
Count the head attached. Is that the horse's head?
Great river runs left/great treasure lies right sounds like it might be significant (left/right). Probably isn't.
Only one pot is hot. It's numbered too. And the wrong bridge is a road without treasure. I give three clues if asked. Is the 1,2,3 sequence significant? Probably not.
June 19, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
when i wrote "counting words" in the poem, i meant that particular attention should paid to words, not actually counting them, but taking account of them.
You had to "count" the spelling of the word.
Thus a "pot numbered too" means a "pot numbered also"
But a "pot numbered two" would have been counted 2.
That meant in my mind that the pot had to have a different number.
June 19, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I mentioned the horse already; if the steed went forth twice instead of going back twice, there would be no ambiguity."
Yes. And on a game one might have some door open when it's done that way. I was trying to lead the mind away from the horses 4 steps...and thought backwards would do that.
June 19, 2008 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The first six strophes are very regular in form; the rest is not. Does that have any meaning? I guess not, but it made me wonder."
I thought about that as it developed but was too (two?) lazy to do it. I really just started the poem and let the game come to me without planning too much. A better way would go back over and make some sense of it Nine stanzas would have been cute.
June 19, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the poem, and later I will go through it.
Code is seed, at least for foals,
Mode is speed to feast on trolls,
A knight lies slain.
Which of thee dwell 'neath the crossing,
Who picks tea among the tossing,
No leaf tells.
Orion knows and counts them madly,
One two three and more quite gladly
Trolls know trolls.
The code is in the counting.
The steed won't stop for mounting.
How then ride?
To count one rides beyond the glen.
Counting words, not trolls not men.
How then count?
One two three and then skip four,
Go again and then skip more,
Gaze and write.
The Troll's Riddle is a Number:
You cannot pass without a fee. Pay me and cross.
But not the steed. To get the beast across I need another fee. Steed moves back twice. Count the head attached.
A great river runs left. And once across, a great treasure lies right beyond the forest. But at the forest's edge is the graveyard. The wrong number lands you there, another troll's feast.
You can't make the right tea in the wrong pot. Only one pot is hot. It's numbered too. And the wrong bridge is a road without treasure. I give three clues if asked. One at a time. Fees plus pot then. All is seen from high above.
I roam now with perfect measure.
And in a form I take with pleasure:
Count me right and that's the treasure.
June 18, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You cannot pass without a fee. Pay me and cross.
But not the steed. To get the beast across I need another fee. Steed moves back twice. Count the head attached.
A great river runs left. And once across, a great treasure lies right beyond the forest. But at the forest's edge is the graveyard. The wrong number lands you there, another troll's feast."
Well sports fans, I never said that this was solved did I? I just said that 9 was a good number.
June 19, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was just hoping for someone to come up with the final solution so that I could hit myself on the head and wonder why I hadn't seen the solution when it was so blindingly obvious...
No such luck :)
June 19, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
One two three could be 123 as easily as 1+2+3.
Count the head attached. Is that the horse's head?
I DON'T KNOW...WHAT DO YOU THINK? FOLLOW WORDS CLOSELY TO EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITY
Great river runs left/great treasure lies right sounds like it might be significant (left/right). Probably isn't.
WELL, since the other clues were real, why would you imagine that the rest of it isn't. If there are real people and real places, I might think that a great river on the Left and treasure on the right and all that stuff is true.
I also didn't say that the Dutch Church was right, cause it's the wrong church. Hillary found 9 through real people and events.THere's still more to find.
I HAVEN"T SAID THAT IT'S SOLVED. I JUST SAID THAT 9 WAS THE POT. AND SAID THAT EVERYTHING UP TO HORSE WAS RIGHT.
There is more to it. Until someone tries a proof which I think is now ALL THERE in the clues, it's no solved.
June 19, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't say the final number was right. I asked for a proof.
June 19, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to put the other clues in here b/c its too confusing to keep going back and forth from here to there.
The pot comes from a potter who named all his pots with the same number taken from a road on which he lived many years ago. He lived next to a church whose rites came about from a King's desire for a Queen.
He asked for a clue to the pot which I gave. I offer you this clue.
Benedict Arnold
You have to find the number of the pot, given by the potter from the street on which he lives, next to the old church whose rites resulted from a desire for a queen.
You have the clue (1)Benedict Arnold and now (2) Major John Andre.
No charge for this: The church is south of the bridge.
A member of the church lives at Sunnyside.
Ok. So Sunnyside, were we talking about Irving at Sunnyside Manor?
Oh wait. Ok. Irving went to two churchs there. First Zion Episcopal and then Christ Episcopal.
Oh Jesus. Ok, I just had that moment where I realize I'm an idiot. We're talking about Sleepy Hollow and I'm mystified by "count the head attached."
I'm googling the most random things and missing whats right in front of my face. The bloody Headless Horseman.
June 19, 2008 6:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn Drifter! How did I not see that???
June 19, 2008 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
So the bridge. Something happened there. I'm trying to drag this story from the depths of my memory but it's not coming....
June 19, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sucks that I know almost nothing about either Benedict Arnold or Sleepy Hollow (and Washington Irving).
Try this, Hilary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Andr%C3%A9
June 19, 2008 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
you know about them now :)
June 19, 2008 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sleepy Hollow is quite quaint.
June 19, 2008 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
you've been there?
June 19, 2008 7:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. I would love to live on one of the houses on the river.
So very, very New England.
Well, not the old folks home, it looked like one. Hum, maybe even that, in time.
I had no idea how beautiful it was up there.
June 19, 2008 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
sleepy with th enemy
June 21, 2008 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
sleepy with th enemy
June 21, 2008 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
sleepy with the enemy
June 21, 2008 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Much relevant info here:
http://www.sleepyhollowcemetery.org/sleepy_country.html
"All is seen from high above" may mean looking at a map.
June 19, 2008 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, the King with desire for a Queen was probably Solomon. Solomon's Temple is referred to as Zion, and the Zion Episcopal Church in Tarrytown (which Irving used to go to) is south of the Tappan Zee Bridge. Assuming the "great river" is Hudson.
The great treasure might refer to the US Mint located in West Point, but that seems a bit of a stretch.
June 19, 2008 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK. I never knew the Solomon connection. So that is a good proof.
I didn't know that Irving went to any church other than Christ Episcopal --so in my mind, the rites that came about from" the desire for a queen" referenced the Church of England when old Henry wanted to marry Anne Boleyn. That became of the Episcopal Church. There's another connection there, awaiting someone's discovery. But the Solomon proof works, and is new to me on several levels. Well done !
The great river is of course the Hudson. The bridge wasn't there back then. You need another bridge, but there might be some very very small bridges that don't show up on a modern map, but still figure in the story.
Interesting thing about West Point would be that Benedict Arnold had command there when he became a traitor. The treasure is off to the right from the bridge. I don't think the bridge will be on any map today.
June 19, 2008 9:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
OH. When I mentioned above that the bridge was not there back then, I meant the Tappan Zee Bridge across the Hudson-- built in the 1950's. Washington Irving's time a bit earlier.
June 19, 2008 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK. The bridge is described in one account, and can be pinpointed by that description. So I ain't gotta give it to ya....
June 19, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is all about an hour from me. I should go there sometime. Lyndhurst looks beautiful. Come to think of it, someone I know may have been married there.
"Irving notes in The Legend of Sleepy Hollow that the route of the Albany post road was not always to the west of the church."
Seems relevant?
June 19, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Christ Episcopal Church is right on Albany Post Rd (9) and on the west side of it. It's possible that the road ran south of it long ago, I can imagine a route. But I sure think that bridge is right where it has always been.
The wiki article "Legend of Sleepy Hollow places it, and I imagine on a map or google earth.
I think the "treasure at the Right" is the last interesting tid-bit,
so we'll see.
I'm ready to reveal the rest....it's draggin on.
Hillary, you have all the info you need to do the numbers, why don't you...you have all of it
WHO is going to make a good riddle/puzzle for me? Come on now, you guys can do it !
June 20, 2008 2:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nevermind. I missed the bit about the Hudson. My eyes are starting to blur which means I have to step back from the computer now.
June 19, 2008 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
the game is over part 1
Seems like this played out. And most everything has been discovered Here's a proof with a few holes.
Add together:
1,2,3,5,6,7,
horse 8
head ?
pot 9
Story. "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" by Washington Irving.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Sleepy_Hollow
Washington Irving lived at Sunnyside Manor. In my account he attended Christ Episcopal Church, on Rt 9 and North of Sunnyside.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_of_Tarrytown
Both of you found another Church --Zion, and it is mentioned in the Wiki. Christ Church is a place people visit to pay hommage to Irving. Codegen suggested something completely new...that the desire for the Queen was about Solomon.
My case for "rites" and denomination. Henry/Boleyn creates Anglican Church of England--in America, Episcopalian.
The bridge's location in the story.
June 20, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
I find this whole story painful
June 20, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nah. I learned something about Washington Irving, Arnold & Andre (fascinating story), and about the outskirts of NYC.
June 20, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I heard that the redcoat bastard Arnold married some fancy lady who was really a redcoat woman anyways. He was general I don't hold with no traitor, no how, now way. Too bad that bastard got back to England...I'll bet they treated there like crap. No one likes a traitor.
What did you find out about them then redcoats from the city?
Were there plenty of those turn-coats livin' near that Manor..
I'm a thinkin' that you done found yourself some other turn-coats..
where you been a'reading?
June 20, 2008 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Blames it on the wife ! Typical. At least he can't read or write. I wonder if someone did write an account of this time from a woman's point of view. Who married Irving? That's a fine house.
June 20, 2008 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I bit too frilly for me, durn it. But I remember trails --that's my job-- and I do remember that Albany Post Road. Might have gone down the hill before that durn Church, but I think it was the fancy church was at the riverside if the trail.
Me and plenty of the young boys didn't like that Washington Irving nor all then kind. They made us clear shit from their stables and kept our folks poor working on their growing patches which weren't no durn good for food...just some plant they brought on a boat from red-coat country.
I wish we had kicked all those Tories out or hung the whole lot of them, and burned down any damd house called a manor.
We didn[t want to live in "New England"...we were the real Americans, dagnabbit, and we wanted the trail west.
I do like this new fangled Google Earth thing though. Let's me follow trails from high above. And durn it, i'm a looking at that road now, and i'll be a dead shit mule skinner if I can't see some statue of the boys that robbed the Tory spy Andre, right there on the very spot. It's in a park at the left. They knew that high-falootin english fop had money. He were a redcoat --them boys seen that. Hope they robbed him good. hope they got some kind of medal for turning him over to General Washington. hope them boys saw 'em hang too... and all them people what came to watch him, a 'cried a fore him with hankies when he went to speech-a-fying..--that were another durn reason to go west. Hankies" Shee--it.
i coud read a bit, and took that headless horseman book with me.. durn it, as i see it, the whole damn story should be retold today from the horse's view....
Using this Google Earth Thing, damned if I don't see that durn bridge a ways down that road and the crick. And durn it, that little bridge is right a-fore that fancy place they buried them rich folks.
Might have rode up there to the right into those woods, now that I see them today...hunt a few dear. Think i can make out a few of them still..
What's that? You say there's some treasure up there. Don't see
and don't believe it. No story about treasure back then, and that would be a story I would remember back then, and went a 'looking for.." Maybe that fop Washington Irving buried some of his money up there. And I don't think he wrote the story neither.. I think he stole it from some good old boy who knew them parts long before that Sunnyside Manor was built.
Partner..if you go that Sunnyside Manor, keep low, because them rooms are mighty small.
I see on the Google that the little bridge is over that good stream, the one that flows West to the Hudson, turns that Mill Wheel still there.
But durn it, that stream looks a bit puny now. Too many eastern folks put wells up in thar hills, took the good water too. Took down the beaver and fox for trapping. All trapped out then. A few still around I guess...the lucky ones. Gotta respect all the beasts in God's Garden. Wonder if them that's there today could trace their blood a-back to fox-spirits.
Nice country back then. Kinda small compared to the mountains west, and the old trails we learnt from the indians...the Mohegans were long gone by then, the ones that trapped in the Pocontico, one of stayed on a made a movie...durn it
This durn Google is a trail blazer ain't it?
June 20, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You want to tell the story from the viewpoint of the horse? Any other choices there? "Partner.."
Typical...
June 20, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess the headless horseman didn't have much of a viewpoint.
June 20, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
He had "views" about women. Didn't treat them well. At least Jonnie Depp was good in the movie.
June 20, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Partner. I ain't a callin' you by your Christian name--looks a bit foreign, but partner, wherever you live, well I 'spect that you are a good old boy.
If you can crack a joke for these hankie lovin' tea drinkin' book types, you could be a real mule-skinner --and a'welcome in the bunk house. We got a lot of you poor foreign boys over here. You done good too. Darn good. But I can't make no sense of that mountain man we called "Mad McGregor" ..what with the way he wants his Apache woman to make some skirt for him.
Some of the boys are a'scarred to go hunting with Mad Mac up the brokeback trail--mountain man in a dress. Shee....it.
But partner, I guess you could follow them fancy maps they make these days... got all the trails me and the boys learned from the indians.
June 20, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
or a number
June 22, 2008 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK boys...good to parlay (that be indian talk from up canada way).
I'm headin' to a stomp down. Yippee. Gonna fiddle them American tunes, not no redcoat songs, durn it.
June 20, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
My Dear Clark:
I send you herewith a plan of a rural cemetery projected by some of the worthies of Tarrytown, on the woody hills adjacent to the Sleepy Hollow Church. I have no pecuniary interest in it, yet I hope it may succeed, as it will keep that beautiful and umbrageous neighborhood sacred from the anti-poetical and all-leveling axe. Besides, I trust that I shall one day lay my bones there. The projectors are plain matter-of-fact men, but are already, I believe, aware of the blunder which they have committed in naming it the “Tarrytown,” instead of the “Sleepy Hollow” Cemetery. The latter name would have been enough of itself to secure the patronage of all desirous of sleeping quietly in their graves.
I beg you to correct this oversight, should you, as I trust you will, notice this sepulchral enterprise.
I hope as the spring opens you will accompany me in one of my brief visits to Sunnyside, when we will make another trip to Sleepy Hollow, and (thunder and lightning permitting) have a colloquy among the tombs.
Yours, very truly,
Washington Irving
New York, April 27, 1849
Pretty cool. http://www.sleepyhollowcemetery.org/
Donnerpass has the best stories. And clues all wrapped up in the memory of the trail...
So that's where Irving is buried. And...
It looks like Carnegie, Chrysler, and Rockefeller are also there. And Elizabeth Arden. Hell, I would have guessed Carnegie was buried in PA.
June 20, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Google Goddess. All Blue People Bow.
June 20, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Sleepy Hollow Cemetery surrounds the Old Dutch Burying Ground, the spot identified in The Legend of Sleepy Hollow as the resting place of the headless horseman. Washington Irving is laid to rest in the southern end of the cemetery in a plot overlooking the old church and its burying ground. Other famous individuals buried in Sleepy Hollow Cemetery include Andrew Carnegie, Walter Chrysler, William Rockefeller, and Elizabeth Arden. Pick up a free map of the grounds at the cemetery office located about 1/4 mile north of the Old Dutch Church on Route 9 (North Broadway)."
Just thinking out loud here...
You can see the cemetery on google. I don't have Google Earth downloaded on this computer but you can still see it with the maps. Pretty damn huge.
June 20, 2008 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can a head be buried there? Does it cost more or less?
June 20, 2008 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Riddle over? Don't we still need a number?
June 21, 2008 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
duh.....
June 22, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whoa. Google paired up with the Wiki? You can click on the map for brief Wiki's of the places there.
I spy a bridge...
June 20, 2008 3:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the Rockefeller estate right next to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kykuit
Gotta take a break for a bit. Be back later.
June 20, 2008 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn. Look at this place.
http://www.hudsonvalley.org/content/view/12/42/
Positively gorgeous.
I could never really get into modern architecture. This was always more my style.
We took a field trip to Fallingwater way back when. Overrated, in my opinion. The ceilings are so low.
The fact that it's on a waterfall is undeniably cool, however.
June 20, 2008 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ommm...Ommm.....Ommmm
June 20, 2008 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
On a random tangent, I'm wondering why Carnegie was buried in Sleepy Hollow. His name jumps out at me the most b/c Pittsburgh is my home town.
Interesting story related to him is the story of the Johnstown Flood and the South Fork Hunting and Fishing Club. Really captures the dynamic between the working class and the wealthy in that time.
June 20, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
story?
June 21, 2008 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kykuit (rhymes with "high cut") is a word of Dutch origin meaning "lookout" or "high point".
June 20, 2008 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suspect at this point I'm really just talking to myself.
June 20, 2008 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm here, Hillary. You might need a rest after all that. But many thanks for all this !
June 21, 2008 12:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
You may be, but it's fun to listen.
June 21, 2008 5:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lady. Many a time I've had a choice for a parlay. Me and the horse, me and the mule, or me and me. Turns out the damn mule is the best conversater.
Told me joke about a horse. And you know that mules love to tell jokes about horses.
Horse walks into a bar. The bartender looks at the horse and says
"why the long face?"
Well lady, what kind of joke can horse tell on a mule. That might be my point, but it seems like a joke itself. I'll get back to you when I talk to the horse.
June 21, 2008 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
story?
June 21, 2008 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
All these stories, so fun to know'em
I'm too brain drained to write a poem
June 21, 2008 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rich peope love modern houses. When they don't they don't they just go to their cozy traditional
country house.
June 21, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look at all this good stuff I missed. Had to drift off few a couple days.
On the architecture. Check out this place.
http://www.simondale.net/house/index.htm
Great windows.
I've always had a thing for pre-modern forms of architecture myself. Better lines. More intricacy. Just grabs my eye.
The Pyramide at the Louvre is a disaster. Anything that obstructs the view of the original building would be, in my opinion. Musee D'Orsay a great building. Used to be a train station back in the day. You can tell in that one big room.
One of these days, I'd like to just spend days wandering around Italy just watching the lines of the buildings.
Here? What's good. Let's see. The NY library. Wright's got something out in Arizona that's not quite my style but the stonework is incredible. Mostly random buildings, I guess. The ones that catch your eye when you drive past them. Unnamed. Just the lines left in your memory.
June 21, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Drifter. Great stuff.
June 22, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
What happened to code? Must be working.
June 22, 2008 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Countman, Code, Hillary, would someone please add up the numbers, finally ? I need closure. I'll beg then:
Walking then on secret waters,
First to tombs and then to forest,
He counted.
Days of youth would soon be none,
He would read the great John Donne,
He counted.
No answers but the word
Every number heard
Counting, still counting.
June 22, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink