« On justice and TGWOT: immunity and impeachment | Ben's Blog | Why Dems can take pride in a double standard »
Obama is no better than McCain
Does it matter who we vote for? Obama and McCain are practically two peas in a pod. Consider their view points on various issues:
* Civil rights: Obama voted in favor of a recent FISA bill that had telecom immunity in it. Sure, he voted for the amendment that would've stripped that immunity which McCain surely would've voted against had he bothered to show up, but that doesn't count for anything. Also, ignore McCain's stance on habeas corpus. That's latin for something, so it can't be that important. Oh, and that torture thing? Fuggeddaboutit.
* Abortion: Obama is in favor of allowing states to prohibit third-trimester abortions to women unless there's an actual physical or psychological need for it (mental distress does not count), just like McCain is in favor of allowing states to prohibit all abortions.
* Iraq: Obama has admitted that an unforseen disaster might cause him to adjust his 18-month timetable in Iraq, making him no better than McCain and his 100-year timetable.
* Faith-based initiatives: Obama wants to make sure these funds are only used in a manner that does not support proselytizing, but he doesn't want to end faith-based initiatives, so he's no better than McCain.
* Death penalty: Obama has said that he thinks the death penatly should be allowed for child rapists, just like McCain. Ignore that Obama has fought legislatively against the death penalty while McCain has actively supported it. They both agree on the child rapist thing, so they're the same here, too.
* Environment: Hey, McCain's also said that he thinks global warming is real! (Ignore McCain's score of 26 from the League of Conservation Voters compared to Obama's score of 96. It's irrelevant I tell you!)
For more information on how the two are exactly alike check out where McCain and Obama stand on the issues.
(Warning: the above should not be read by the sarcasm-impaired.)
* Civil rights: Obama voted in favor of a recent FISA bill that had telecom immunity in it. Sure, he voted for the amendment that would've stripped that immunity which McCain surely would've voted against had he bothered to show up, but that doesn't count for anything. Also, ignore McCain's stance on habeas corpus. That's latin for something, so it can't be that important. Oh, and that torture thing? Fuggeddaboutit.
* Abortion: Obama is in favor of allowing states to prohibit third-trimester abortions to women unless there's an actual physical or psychological need for it (mental distress does not count), just like McCain is in favor of allowing states to prohibit all abortions.
* Iraq: Obama has admitted that an unforseen disaster might cause him to adjust his 18-month timetable in Iraq, making him no better than McCain and his 100-year timetable.
* Faith-based initiatives: Obama wants to make sure these funds are only used in a manner that does not support proselytizing, but he doesn't want to end faith-based initiatives, so he's no better than McCain.
* Death penalty: Obama has said that he thinks the death penatly should be allowed for child rapists, just like McCain. Ignore that Obama has fought legislatively against the death penalty while McCain has actively supported it. They both agree on the child rapist thing, so they're the same here, too.
* Environment: Hey, McCain's also said that he thinks global warming is real! (Ignore McCain's score of 26 from the League of Conservation Voters compared to Obama's score of 96. It's irrelevant I tell you!)
For more information on how the two are exactly alike check out where McCain and Obama stand on the issues.
(Warning: the above should not be read by the sarcasm-impaired.)
Advertisement





0 TROLL POINTS FOR YOU
1) No late-term abortions is the same as no abortions at all?
2) 18 +/- months is the same as permanent bases?
3) Controlling the programs from discrimination is the same as not controlling the programs at all?
4) An anti-death stance is the same as a pro-death stance?
5) Alternative energy is the same as drill, drill, drill?
Welcome aboard the fail boat!
July 11, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure if it's technically trolling when it's telegraphed sarcasm. (I even provided the disclaimer...)
Either way, I'm in complete agreement with you. I can't imagine a single issue that people here (other than our two Republican friends) have complained about Obama's stance on where the answer would be to elect McCain instead. You might not agree with Obama on every sub-issue (I don't), but I can't think of a single one where McCain does better, and I can think of several where McCain is far, far worse.
July 11, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
if you have to provide a disclaimer, your ability to use satire SUCKS
don't try this again
or don't quit your day job ...
July 12, 2008 12:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Someone points out why your post is dumb, so you claim it's "telegraphed sarcasm." Right. It was no such thing. It was stupid.
July 12, 2008 7:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
The post might very well have been stupid, but if you can't see how it was telegraphed sarcasm, then so are you. ;)
July 12, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
You need to check the batteries on your snark detector, Diego.
July 11, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The American people are so beaten and battered by the tremendous volume of BS that's been dropped on their heads by the Bush Administration and by their captive media cohorts that one has to be really careful with sarcasm these days. When you've got media outlets willingly representing those in power's viewpoint and giving up on their own responsibility to seek out the truth, you just can't be too careful when actually telling the truth.
I'd say that the safer approach, if you really want to communicate with most people, is to actually say what you mean.
Maybe some day when the level of total BS recedes, it might be possible again to throw curve balls to your readers. But not now, not today.
July 11, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howz that wet blanket, er, your Grace?
July 11, 2008 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howz that wet blanket, er, your Grace?
July 11, 2008 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ben. By uniting Obama & McCain, can't you see that you are, in fact, DIVIDING we Democrats?
By ordering the sarcasm-impaired to NOT read your piece, you are in fact CENSORING the many such wounded souls here at TPM?
By using your so-called "Happy Bobcat" avatar, you are in fact DISMISSING the suffering of this endangered species?
By writing, that you are in fact NOT SHUTTING UP?
I'm calling the Pope. He'll sort you out. When you got a rat-problem... call in the Rat-Zinger, I say.
July 11, 2008 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you really believe that after 18 months of an Obama Presidency that the U.S. will be out of Iraq? Just watch. After 18 months of the Obama Presidency you will be finding ways to excuse Obama for continuing the occupation. Remember, it was the Clinton team who were responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths through their enforcement of sanctions against the Iraqis. Obama looks increasingly like more of the same. The only change is in the promise of changes. Your story rings more true if one removes the sarcasm and takes it seriously.
July 11, 2008 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
(Warning: the above should not be read by the sarcasm-impaired)
July 11, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
See, I needed that, too! ;)
July 11, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL...checking my snark batteries too. :)
Consider my previous post retracted.
July 11, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, I'm not sure who's snarking about not getting the snark, here.
July 11, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sometimes I fear some of have lost our sense of humor. So if this has happened to you, please go find it before commenting.
The management deeply appreciates your understanding and cooperation.
July 11, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
How about No Shirts - No Shoes - No Service! or
We have the right to refuse to serve you!
July 11, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
No difference??? Hhmmm. Will you say that when the next round of supreme court judges are being nominated?
July 11, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
See, I can't tell if you're sarcastically failing to recognize my sarcasm, or if you genuinely failed to recognize my sarcasm…
But yes, the Supreme Court is one more place where the differences are stark.
July 11, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are you talking about? They both want to appoint Justices to the Supreme Court! They're exactly the same.
July 11, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right! How could I have missed it!
July 11, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are so clearly a communist. McCain is a HERO! Thus, it simply doesn't matter that he is also senile.
July 11, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
yet another grouching puma
July 11, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bullshit comparisons here.
I'll address the most important to me of the issues you listed: the Environment.
McCain has said climate change is real, and during the primary he was the most outspoken of all the candidates, dem and republican, on the issue. I was pleased with that. He has reversed so many of his positions though, and his energy/environment plan has become so watered down now it's almost meaningless, and one could argue, harmful, on the nuclear and coal initiatives. He only pays lip service to climate change now - acknowledging it isn't enough. We need sound proactive policies to mitigate it. Probably the only thing I like in his entire plan at this point is his rejection of corn ethanol. The rest is crap.
Please. Look again.
And foreign policy, hello? It's not just Iraq - it's how to deal with Iran, Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, to mention a few.
July 11, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not many have heeded your warning!
America's reading comprehension skills have reached a new low.
July 11, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
At this point, I suspect that they might just be doing a double-leg yanking. I'm not sure, though.
July 11, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or maybe they thought I was only being sarcastically sarcastic?
July 11, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
hehehe
It's funny when people don't get not getting it ;)
July 11, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I like about McCain is that there won't be any need to pick new people and stuff, so we can avoid all that ridiculous upheaval. He can just keep everybody where they are...Cheney, Rice, Brownie. Er, strike the last one.
I want to wake up on 1/20/09 and know that nothing whatsoever is going to change. And that's why I'm picking the old, white one!
July 11, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL!
July 11, 2008 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh...just curious. Who, precisely, said that McCain and Obama were no different from one another?
July 11, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
There have been a few blogs here suggesting that it doesn't matter whether we vote for McCain or Obama. Not many, but a few.
July 11, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, bluebell seemed to think so when he said, "...I look forward to Bush's third term no matter who is elected."
And believe me, bluebell is not the only one who believes such a thing.
July 11, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Believe you? No thanks. I'm not in the business of "believing."
July 11, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am slain.
You make too good a point.
July 11, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I went back to June 29th. I counted exactly two blogs (I may have missed one, I don't think so, but I'm willing to stand corrected.) that could possibly be construed as suggesting "they're no different." And one was by some freak from the Larouche society! Yeah, let's take that guy seriously!
I guess that could have been what you meant by "not the only one." Fair enough. But, still, hardly rises to the level of any great concern. I mean this post kinda gives the impression that we actually had something to worry about. Heh-heh.
July 11, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eh, I myself never thought it was of great concern. But I dunno, it's not simply here at TPM. I see more and more mention of it elsewhere. Still, I'd like to stay hopeful that the majority of people making such statements are really just Republican trolls.
As for the post, I just enjoy the wit and sarcasm. =)
July 11, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe bluebell was being sarcastic, too? It's the only defense I can think of…
July 11, 2008 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I could stretch reality and reason to go along with that "defense."
July 11, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ben, you're so right on. McCain and Obama are exactly the same. We must spread the word and enlighten the ignorant.
/snark (I put this as it seems many seem to be having trouble detecting snark and sarcasm in this thread)
July 11, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I stopped reading RIGHT THERE mister.
Poking fun at the sarcastically impaired is, in a word, deplorable.
July 11, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
And that's sarcastically challenged, thank you very much. Sarcastially impaired" is very disempowering.
July 11, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I stand corrected, thanks SO much
July 11, 2008 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Earth...Flat or Spherical?
Both arguments have merit!
July 11, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Depends on the shape of one's head
July 11, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Polygonal
July 11, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Twelve dimensional.
July 11, 2008 7:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I heard Obama is McCains love child from an old girlfriend he left behind in Kenya.(McCain got around that way, don't cha know he's an aviator) This is why Obama and McCain are so similar, they're related! This makes Obama a secret republican.
July 11, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course, you realize that Obama and Cheney really are related, don't you? (Seriously.)
July 11, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
You really know how to get people to read your post.
Nicely done.
I wonder how many comments a post entitled:
"I'm Through With Barack McBush."
After the overheated FISA threads, I'm ready for some snarky humor.
July 11, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be recomended without being read!
July 11, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was perhaps a bit transparent. ;)
July 11, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Better you put your disclaimer at the top, Ben.
Reading through the whole thing then to be told it's sarcastic left me rolling my eyes. Because, unfortunately, the "comparisons" you imply are sarcastic are being made seriously.
You have to come up with some patently absurd "comparisons" to make a jaded reader know that your opinions are satire before you make your disclaimer.
There are people who post here seriously that have gone further than you, so on this topic, you are just too subtle.
July 11, 2008 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's like a Monty Python sketch in convenient thread format!
July 11, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
No i tisn't
July 12, 2008 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes it is.
July 12, 2008 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's Sarcasm. So what is the point of commenting on your comment.
July 11, 2008 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny but a waste of my time.
July 11, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suppose we're very different people, because I can't imagine how something can be funny and a waste of time. I can understand that not everyone will find what I wrote funny, but if you did find it funny, how is that a waste of time?
July 12, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please, don't get all worked up. Listen to Granny Phil, it's all in your head and none of these are real...zen...
July 11, 2008 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
A sure indication that I've been here too long, my snarkmeter is broken. I read Ben's post with rising umbrage. That's it, I need a vacation from TPM.
July 11, 2008 7:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Say it ain't so
:(
July 11, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto!
July 12, 2008 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
SILLY & confusing
July 11, 2008 7:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course he's better than McCain. Just not AS better as he should be, or as the country needs him to be.
There's no bigger waste of time than a heavily sarcastic demolition of a straw man.
July 11, 2008 8:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are those (a few here, many more off-line) who are falling for the old Naderish line that there's no difference. I'm merely trying to illustrate, through humor, that there are tremendous differences. Obviously, I've barely even scratched the tip of the iceberg on those differences.
July 12, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
The real problem with Obama is that he didn't have the balls to stand by his positions without flinching. The hedging about gun rights, abortion, death penalty, FISA, Iraq -- all those "subtle" shifts were about as subtle as a train wreck.
McCain is a weaselly weakling, and now Obama is proving to be another.
All Obama had to do was stand tall and he could have taken this nation like thunder and lightning on a hot night. Instead, he played the typical Democratic party politician, playing tactics instead of employing strategy. Nothing could be more indicative of fundamental character weakness. He's not a leader, he is following his handlers' game "plan."
We're back to the usual "lesser of two evils" election. Well, you Obama-bots got what you wanted, I guess: he's the candidate. Now, he's making it an open question, who is going to be the next President.
Way to go, team.
Thanks.
mp
July 11, 2008 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have Jesse on the line for you...
July 11, 2008 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
We're never going to have a perfect candidate. If you thought that Clinton was one, well, I guess I'll just let you continue to believe that.
For me, Obama is not merely the lesser of two evils. I'm genuinely excited about what he'll accomplish. I can imagine that I'll be disappointed in my excitement, but I cannot imagine that he'll be anyways near as bad as Bush or McCain. I also have a hard time imagining that he'd be as bad as Kerry. Not only do I agree with him on most issues (not all, of course), I also think the guy's got outstanding diplomacy skills. The general election is a very hard beast to navigate, and I think he's made a few missteps here, but if you think he's merely the "lesser of two evils", then you're buying what the MSM and/or the Republicans have been selling you.
July 12, 2008 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Geez, at least have the decency to compare him to Hitler.
July 11, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know Obama and McFuddle are the same person! Do you have any proof that they are NOT? I did not think so.
They both support Guantanamo, and they both hate habeas corpus and agree with Little Nino Scalia. With his FISA CAVE*, Obama wants to turn us into Guantanamo cave. McFuddle wants to keep Guantanamo-on-the-island alive and running. They are the same!
*is it really a cave? Where is it? Does it have bats? Spelunkers wanna know.
July 11, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's here:
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html
July 11, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
And a really cool pool? Can we swim?
July 12, 2008 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ben, if you want to change your avatar, I have no objection, but do we really need another fucking cat?
July 12, 2008 12:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
MEOWWRRRR FFFT HSSSS!!!
Watch it, flasher!!!
July 12, 2008 12:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
First, it's a bobcat (from a picture taken in the wild about 5 feet from said bobcat when I was in Chaco Canyon, NM), and second, you're giving avatar advice? ;)
July 12, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heh
July 12, 2008 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your comparison of Obama's 18 year plan and McCain "100 year" comments is highly misleading, or comparing apples and oranges. since Obama's 18 months deal with combat troops, while McCain's "100 years" comments referred to peace-keeping troops that would be there AS LONG AS our troops were not being injured or killed.
Factcheck.org, Frank Rich and others have called Obama on this smear.
And I mean, SMEAR, as Factcheck.org called it:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/smear_or_be_smeared.html
July 12, 2008 1:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right that I was being too generous with McCain. The 100 year thing was for humor. I assume most people actually realize that he has never stated any timetable for when he'd like to get the troops home.
July 12, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
What we have here is the Iocaine Powder Gambit approach to Sarcastic Implications.
July 12, 2008 1:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
With Video
Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
July 12, 2008 1:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
MrDeadeye2U: Thanks for this! :)
July 12, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is he truly missing to realize that I'm only sarcastically failing to realize his sarcasm, or is he only sarcastically failing to realize that I'm sarcastically failing to realize his sarcasm?
July 12, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you should make your comparisons using McCain's actual positions instead of gross distortions of them. On 'torture' of foreign terrorists (which I support not just to get info but as a new olympic sport!), McCain was one of the first to speak out against 'harsh interrogation techniques', he rejected the Senate bill because of an amendment that forced the CIA to the same rules as the military, and he felt that they should have different standards. ON the 100 year timetable, you know this is a lie, so why keep repeating it? On the 'faith based initiatives', Obama's position is no different than current law and Bush Policy. On the death penalty, how can you fight legislatively against it in all cases, then say in an election contest that you support it for various crimes? Should he clarify his position to be against it for all other crimes, or would that cost him votes?
July 12, 2008 8:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I took some liberties with McCain's positions.
Your explanation of why McCain "caved" on torture does bring some "nuance" to it, which is exactly what others call "flip-flopping" when it comes to Obama. So, thanks for yet another comparison.
McCain has never stated that he wants to bring the troops home in 100 years, or ever, for that matter.
On faith-based initiatives, what Obama is calling for is very much different from what is currently happening. If you go to recent threads where it's been discussed, you'll see that many posters have pointed this out in detail.
On the death penalty, I think you're right. I cannot square Obama's stated opposition to the recent SCOTUS ruling with his previous actions to curtail the death penalty, other than to call it pandering. Perhaps this is an instance of "nuance" that escapes me. Or maybe he's just another politician trying to get elected. Many of these "comparisons", although tongue-in-cheek, relate to actual disappointments either to me or to others, but where Obama is still head-and-shoulders better than McCain (unless you're a Republican and/or don't care for civil rights in general).
July 12, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Regarding bringing troops home, McCain's position is to win the war, and that is happening (I know most here will disagree, they should read the latest briefings from CIA and from Iraq gov't and on the ground news sources). Al Quaeda is in shambles in Iraq, they have been pushed from Mosul (their last hold out) and into the countryside. The Iraq gov't is almost strong enough to stand on it's own (except for air support). It appears that major combat forces will be able to be out before even Obama's timetable. After that, McCain does not oppose (and Iraq wants) some residual forces deployed on permanent bases to maintain stability and keep Iran in check. Iraq may never be as stable as the US, but Israel faces daily bombings and that country is considered a successful democracy.
I don't know more about the faith initiatives, other than it is against the law to use the grant money for religious purposes currently.
As far as Republicans and civil rights, many were involved in civil rights campaigns long before it became left trendy. Chuck Heston marched outside restaurants that wouldn't serve blacks in the late 50's, when it could have hurt his career. Republicans are the chief proponents of the civil right to own a gun, which the court finally recognized.
July 12, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Things that might have happened to folks' senses of humor:
1) You put it away during the primary wars and forgot to get it out of storage.
2) Lack of use. Please folks unless you exercise it it atrophies.
3) You take yourself so seriously you never cultivated one.
4) You are such a staunch (insert political position here) that nothing about this election is funny.
If any of the above applies to you please step away from the computer and go find something to laugh about.
Always remember if you are not having fun you are not doing it right.
July 12, 2008 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
You have no idea how close your "sarcasm" is to reality.
1) Civil rights: Obama PROMISED to filibuster any bill offering retroactive immunity. You have to remember that no one knows exactly what Bush and the telecoms did. We only know what's been leaked. The new FISA law explicitly allows interception of communication between an American and an overseas recipient. That's right, in contradiction to the Constitution. Please read Glenn Greenwald's series of expose on FISA and the constitution on Salon.com. You cannot defend his FISA vote and then complain about torture - it's part of the same mentality that the executive branch can do whatever it considers necessary.
2) Abortion: Most late-term abortions, contrary to popular myth, are performed due to severe deformity or condition of the FETUS. That's right, outlawing third-trimester abortions except for the physical health of the mother is a nicer way of saying banning abortion. Stop making excuses, please.
3) Faith-based initiatives: Obama wants to EXPAND funding for religious institutions. Today the Denver Circuit Court rules states cannot "discriminate" against colleges that require faculty to sign a statement that "the Bible is the infallible word of God." Google it. By the same logic, government cannot "discriminate" against religious groups that discriminate in their hiring. Obama's "restriction" will be struck down sooner or later. Maybe even by the same judge.
4) Iraq: Obama has voted for several funding bills without restrictions. He now says up to 50,000 American troops may be left in Iraq to secure our "interests." By comparison, at the peak of the recent surge there were perhaps 170,000 troops.
5) Death penalty: Do you think Congress will stop at child rapists when they draft a new death penalty bill?
6) Environment: For now this is one area where Obama's obviously superior, but who knows, at the rate he CHANGES his votes, I wouldn't bet my life saving on it being the same when he gets into office.
Bottom line: Stop sticking your head in the sand. He's not a messiah. He's not even a centrist. Yes, he's effective in mobilizing certain people. So did Reagan and Gingrich. And Pat Robertson.
July 25, 2008 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Testing…
November 13, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink