"How do you think you get a "progressive 60" in the Senate without turning red sates blue or at least purple? Simple fact of the matter is to accomplish things your way, Barack's method is the only conceivable way of doing that in 2008."

Exactly. Turning red states blue is the only way. And how do we do that? Many of those red staters are not big on gays, abortion-rights, civil liberties, alternative energies, etc yet. They are not in fact all that liberal in VA or CO or NM. The progressives hate reps like Murtha, but he reflects his fairly conservative constituents in PA quite well. Beating him up doesn't change THEM.

The trick for a pol like Obama is to try to find some common ground when we can, but also retain our principles. Not an easy task, but he is trying -- going before evangelicals to explain his POV. That takes guts, but it is the right approach. I always get the feeling that the purist wing of the Left is not really serious about persuading the rest of the country, but just about being right.

We have to win at the ballot box. Being right all the time is not enough. I'm tired of "being right" while America is ripped to shreds by the very much wrong and corrupted Bush regime. We've banked all our hopes in the courts, but even that is gone with a SC packed with rightwingers.

We have to win at the ballot box.

Not to mention, I'm not even anti-Obama. When he does something I agree with, I cheer him. I broadcast it. It is the "get in line" mentality I find most repugnant.

that's what makes you freethinking, agreeing and disagreeing where you see fit. I'm open to change my opinion. I'm not open to being told to fall in line. Convince me, that's all I'm asking.

You wrote "The right seems more open to discussion than the left."

How can you say this when you disagreed with the original poster whose expressing sincere frustration with the mental contortions required to support Obama on FISA.

Honestly, the level of brown in this little pool is getting toxic. We have people saying that Obama has a "secret plan", that this restores judicial review when it limits it, that FISA is not that important or even better, Obama knows more than we do and we should just trust him.

You know, I can accept, though disagree with, the argument that it's a bad decision constitutionally, but politically smart and necessary. At least those folks aren't tying their brains and their principles in knots to support Obama wholeheartedly.

I believe it's a bad decision politically. Obama's greatest strength is his aura of honesty and authenticity. People voted for Bush even though they disagreed on issues because he said "this is what I believe and I ain't changing because it's unpopular". *(Actually, I think his exact words were "who gives a damn what you think."

Democrats so often betray core principles under Beltway and campaign consultant pressure to move to the right that they are perceived as dishonest, opportunistic and inauthentic. That's why they lose, not because they stick to the liberal principles. This happens again and again and again.

Sometimes you just have to say, yup, we disagree, but even if it costs me your vote, I have to do what's right. Said that way, it often will not cost that vote. This move by Obama is so politically maladroit and so much a rightward shift to make the Beltway happy that I think Hillary may have just given him Mark Penn's cell number and that WOULD be sabotage. It's a Mark Penn sort of move.

I am unhappy with Obama's decision. I will vote for him, but I will let him know this is a disappointment and pressure him to do the right thing. More disappointiing though is the demonstration that liberals who are supposed to be able to hold contradictory ideas in their heads at the same time, have this need to abandon their beliefs to sustain their support for Obama. We should be able to believe sincerely that 1) Obama is the best choice for President in the General Election and 2) Obama is wrong on FISA. They aren't even contradictory ideas, but for some people here at TPM, they have turned themselves into mental pretzels to avoid having to accept something so simple.

This is dangerous for many reasons. It reveals a need for authoritarianism and it can lead us down that road. Moreover, it also indicates people whose support is dependent on perfection - they cannot support Obama is he's wrong on one issue, so they change their opinions on FISA or conclude he has a secret plan.

That sort of mindset is what should worry you more than people who know that Obama is the best choice in November and will stand by him even though he screws up from time to time.

Good points, but I think I have a good point too:

Let's not let in-fighting hurt our chances, and let's not go down the road of scorched earth, Naderite, bash-the-Dems-more-than-the-GOPism.

Big picture, long term, keep our eyes on the ball, etc. etc. Measured, constructive criticism and engagement is the name of the game. But I think most people will agree with me on this (except for the people who just have to disagree).

As previously stated, I've never said that.

If others have accused you of that, I think it's regrettable, but until a poster chooses to tar my with their favorite brush, I give them the benefit of the doubt, as I've given you in the past.