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The REAL Barack Obama--Unmasking the Beast


After years of working as a community organizer, state legislator and U.S. Senator (cynically promoting "liberal" causes and casting thousands of phony votes in order to fool us into thinking he's a liberal Democrat) Barack Obama is finally showing his true face.  It's not a pretty picture.  On the basis of a FISA vote he has not yet cast, and some less-than-liberal statements he has made over the past couple of weeks, we can now be positively certain that Barack Obama is a conservative Republican--possibly THE most conservative Republican of all time.  Everything he has done in the past has now been exposed as fake and/or opportunistic pandering.  This is SOOOO depressing.  How could he have fooled so many millions of people?

I've had it.  Obama's soon-to-be-cast-and-we-already-know-what-he'll-do vote to support the FISA amendment, which is really a proposal to BURN THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND SEND ALL U.S. CITIZENS TO HELL FOREVER AND EVER will be the last straw.  As soon as he votes.  And does whatever else we're pretty sure he's going to do.  Then I will vote for John McCain.  Or possibly George W. Bush for a third term.  Because Barack Obama is NOT PERFECT.  And I refuse to support any candidate unless he or she is perfect and I agree with them 100% of the time.

Call me an idealist--I don't care.  Now that we're finally on the verge of putting a Democrat back in the White House, I have decided that I'm no longer willing to settle for less than absolute perfection.

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We've all been fooled - how dare he pretend to be an honest, upstanding, decent person? And we bought it, shame on us! He and Bush planned it all back in 2002. He advised Bush that the invasion of Iraq was exactly the right thing to do, and in a bait-and-switch move, Obama would make a speech in opposition. THEN, it would ensure that in 2009 we'd get another Republican in office, cleverly disquised as a liberal Democrat. So obvious, since no "real" Republican could get the job.

Yep, we're all just to stupid to see the forest for the trees.

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OMG!!! I hadn't realized the depth of the deception until now! You are RIGHT! Obama and Bush planned this whole thing together! And BUSH WAS A SHITTY PRESIDENT ON PURPOSE!!!! In order to make Republicans look bad so Obama would be elected so he could be an even SHITTIER president! It all makes so much sense!

We're screwed...

The Fourth amendment? Just getting started! He's planning to repeal the Ten Commandments and rewrite the Bible. Straight from an unnamed sourse wishing to protect their identity. But it's true!!

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Your snark aside, the real answer is:

Vote Green (and no, Ralph Nader is NOT a Green Party candidate).

Vote Socialist.

Vote Social Democratic.

There's real progressive solutions, for people who will stop being enablers of barely neolib/DLC Democrats in particular and the two-party duopoly in general.

Five recommends and no comments. Now that is a different trend around here. You have the tone just right.

Some posters have a knack for getting recommendations. Others have a knack for accurate analysis.

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Ooh... bitter! I love the indirect sideswipe strategy. You're not Billy Glad, are you? That's one of his favorite techniques.

Missing Billy Glad already Rabbikitty? :)

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He hasn't gone anywhere, even though he promised.

You're a liberal Rebublican turned concervative Democrat turned centrist Independant turned freestyling Libertarian (or hippie Librarian), aren't you?

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Modified stink eye? That's a new one, isn't it? Very nice.

Why the change in pic?

You are missing the point.

You have been numbed by years of FNC seepage into the MSM into thinking that every choice is "either/or".

Obama was not supposed to be an "anyone but a GOP" candidate.

Why not pressure Obama into defining the issues rather then letting the issues be defined for him? He did that well during the primaries. Why not now? After all, it takes the battle back to the GOP -- and that is a winning strategy.

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What's the point? He's a goddamn Republican. We're screwed.

Indeed. Obviously I'll vote for Obama even if he does move center-left, and I'm becoming more accustom to the idea that 'unity' doesn't mean just liberal haha which should have seemed obvious.

And yet, you're exactly right that Obama isn't supposed to be a settle for candidate. We should try to shape his agenda (as he does represent us).

Gah, that was to Clearthinker

Perhaps he is defining issues that we are not seeing - being too blinded by the MSM and all that. Maybe he sees issues on a larger scale than you or I, maybe we're all too bogged down with FISA and Clark. Think there may be a chance that he's just a TEENY WEENY bit smarter that we pretend to be?

Nah. Not possible. Never mind.

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When clearthinker runs for president, I'm voting for clearthinker. Until then, I think I'll vote for Obama. Oh, and I think I'll trust him to plan his own strategy.

clearthinker '16!

I welcome your vote, but I thought you only voted Republican.

Rabbikitty, you're thinking truly scares me when you say you think you'll trust him to make his own strategy. I'm assuming you had your eyes open when Bush was given that same blind authority by the nation after 9/11 right?


I've campaigned for Obama in 3 states and am very devoted to him. But I'll not write him a blank moral check on the actions he takes just yet...or ever.

Well said.

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Obama is not Bush. The comparison is not applicable.

"Maybe he sees issues on a larger scale than you or I"

uuhhh....like an all-knowing omnipotent being perhaps?????

Shhh...

I knew all along that Obama was a stealth Republican. I have only pretended to back him because I knew that he was tracking my INTERNET posts, and the Telcom Industry was helping him.


Oops. I just realized that he can also track what I just wrote. Never mind. I was just kidding Barack. You are the greatest. No need to waste your FISA efforts on me, your most loyal supporter.

It pains me that he posts at KOS, but not at TPM. OR! That's it!! He's a troll of the tallest order! Sneaks in, bashes himself and runs aways laughing hysterically while we all then beat each other up one side and down the other. Talk about strategy. Cool customer, that closet Repub.

Regarding "sending us all to hell," you left out another reason not to vote for BHO. Obama's full name has 18 letters, divided amongst his first, middle, and last names. That averages out to 6 letters per name. That's 666...

Gasp! Talk about The Beast...

Oh, no... In present time, this comment I'm making to my comment will be the 18th post. I am under the control of Obama!!!

In this regard, though, BHO doesn't hold a candle to Ronald Wilson Reagan.

Woh!

Oh my. You just proved the truth of BunnyKitty's statement:

Barack Obama is a conservative Republican--possibly THE most conservative Republican of all time.

The only the that prevents Obama from being a total right winger is that he writes with his left hand.

In public. Behind the scenes he just visualizes words on the page and they magically appear. I hear his eyes glow, too.

The last 666 president was Ronald Wilson Reagan. Furhter proof that BHO will be a transformative conservative Republican President.

Perhaps he is defining issues that we are not seeing - being too blinded by the MSM and all that. Maybe he sees issues on a larger scale than you or I, maybe we're all too bogged down with FISA and Clark
Or maybe he's just another garden-variety centrist Democrat. Which we already knew, so maybe he didn't need to keep trying quite so hard to prove it.

It is certainly very important that he beat McCain. And the Republican brand is so badly damaged that he probably can win as a generic Democrat. The problems are that 1) he promoted himself- and yes, the actual centrist track record was there for all to see- as a bit more than that; the sudden about face tends to dampen enthusiasm, and 2) as the football cliche goes, the prevent defense tends to prevent wins. Having said that, the campaign stopped undercutting Clark and hasn't stepped on Webb's comments, so they seem to have gotten themselves pulled together a bit since yesterday. On FISA, let's see how things end up after the break.

My point is simply the bigger picture, because it is huge. Imagine for a moment that you want to be the President of the United States for four years (at least). Not just win the presidential campaign, actually BE the President. In these, our most challenging times to date. The list of issues to be considered is mind boggling. We can jump all over the issue of the day and run it into the ground. While crying foul over whatever that happens to be, do we consider the plight of the homeless? AIDS? National security - with information that we minions will never have? So forth and so on. No one issue at a time...all at the same time. Every hour of every day. Cannot fathom why anyone would want the job. But he does. And I believe it is with a true desire to do his best for our country, and therefore the rest of the world.

So I don't expect that he will please all the people all the time. But when regarding the bigger picture, I trust him to see it clearer than I.

Sen. Obama's campaign, in what must be one of the most sensible instant reversals in the history of American politics, renounced the AP story and said that no money would go to organizations that discriminate based on religion.

Quoting:

First, if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them - or against the people you hire - on the basis of their religion.

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Tankard, I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to let you call that a reversal. Obama didn't say he'd changed his position. He said the AP story was wrong.

To be fair, it's an easy issue to confuse for the AP. The religious groups are still allowed discriminatory hiring practices, just not in areas touched by federal grant money.

GWB lifted the non discrimination requirements even for federally funded social programs. Obama wants to bring those restrictions back so faith based initiatives must have non-discriminatory hiring practices only on federally funded grant social services projects. So you can't discriminate against a social worker, grants manager, counselor, teacher. But they may still hire by faith for non-program related jobs as always since those are private church funds (administration, priests, church ladies etc). Federal money does not get spent in a discriminatory way. Seems sensible to me.

I work for a secular non-profit and we must uphold non-discriminatory practices even in areas untouched by government funding.

Now if we could just focus on getting the AP to admit they Obama campaign was behind the story Hillary was going to concede that final Tuesday night of the primaries :)

hrebendorf, I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to let you call yourself Hare-y Pussy anymore. Wait! That's right, I can't stop you.

Dude - relax. Its called winning a national election. Think about every president in the last 30 years that won. They all moved to the middle to pacify claims of extremism by the other side. When they all got in the office, they returned to their roots. Take W for example, promoted himself as a compassionate conservative that could work both sides of the aisle. When he took office he ran straight ahead with an extremely conservative agenda...other than spending. Look, as sad as this sounds, the average American could care less about FISA. They view this as something that people should only be worried about if they are doing something wrong. Take the 2nd amendment, every swing state is in an area that is pro-guns, or, at the very least not anti-gun. Coming out strongly opposed to the Supreme Court decision just gives the repugs an opening. If you want a wide-eyed liberal in the white house, it ain't gonna happen while running as a liberal...read dukakis, tsongas, bradley...all great men...but no damn way they win the white house.

I finally read your whole piece...funny. What - Obama is not perfect?

FUCK! Why didn't I see it before?! Thank you, greatly, hrebendorf, for opening my eyes.

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Wow, you know it's entirely possible that Barack Obama is a douche and a better candidate then McCain (Not to mention Hillary *shudder*). I think we got the best candidate out of the bunch, and I haven't seen a single person ragging on him for FISA suggest voting for McCain.

But, we can't be blinded by political "man crushes" like the MSM gets all the time, it's an important responsibility we all have to monitor "our" candidates and give them hell when they make the wrong choices.

Heretic.

Traitor.

Apostate.

You can't come on this blog and make statements like that. These four guys aren't done congratulating each other on being wrong yet.

Learn the protocol.

Which four guys?

Naming names is not my style.

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But dropping meaningless non sequiturs and pretending they have deep meaning apparently is.

You got a problem wit dat?

I used to love him, but the mutant kitty has opened my eyes to his treachery!

Obama - he peed in the pool!
Obama - he kicked my dog!
Obama - he drank my milkshake!

Thank you Pangaea for your astute rendering of what many of us already believed: Obama is in league with the Devil--and I don't mean the Mormon Church and Mitt Romney either!

Let me see if I've got this right, before I share this with my profuse extended family in New Jersy and Fla.: There are eighteen letters in Obama's full name, divided by first, second and middle--that's three--equals 6 per name so his name signifies 666--Mark of the Devil! Wasn't 666 very popular with the Nazi SS too? Ah, it all comes together: BHO is an Islamofascist Devil Worshipper! What 'til all my relatives hear this! Wow! Obama's toast!

Remember too that Obama is left-handed - yet another sign that he signed a pact with You-Know-Who.

Shit, I'm left-handed, too! What do I do now? Do I have to cut the sucker off?

These are all adjectives; they are given in their nominative singular forms (the way you'd see them in any latin-english dictionary) in this order: masculine, feminine, neuter

Depending on use in sentence and gender of noun, a different ending of the adjective is used. These forms are used to describe a noun that is the subject or predicate nominative of the sentence


Sinister, sinistra, sinistrum - left, left-handed; evil, corrupt (later Latin) [derivative - sinister]

Rectus, recta, rectum - right, correct, proper, plain (I believe this is used for directionality as well as the concept of correctness) [derivative - rectitude, rectify]

Dexter, dextra, dextrum - right, right-handed [derivative - dexterity]

Sinister's evil connotation descends from Roman times, specifically for a rather funny reason.

You eat with your right hand, and you shake hands with that hand also. Manus dexter est rectus.

You wipe with your left hand. Manus sinister est non bonus. Manus sinister est malus.

Don't ask me why the neuter nominative singular for "right" is "rectum," because I don't know. It's funny though.

As for that HBO or Showtime show about the serial killer, Dexter. It's no coincidence that his name is written in red blood. Latin students literally see "Red Right Hand," which is a phrase referring to Satan from Milton's Paradise Lost.

The same line also features prominently in at least two Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds songs, one of which is on the album Murder Ballads.

I wish I had the patience to link this up for y'all, but I'm feeling lazy.

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Just saw a new CNN/Opinion Research poll that shows Obama and McCain in a dead heat. It looks like part of the reason the race is tightening is because Obama's support has softened among voters on the left. Amazing. Wouldn't it be cruelly ironic if the group that worked the very hardest to make him the nominee ended up being his worst enemy? Because even if those on the left are angry with Obama, they should like McCain even less.

During the primary season, one of the raps I heard against Obama was that he was too far to the left win in the general election. Now he's too far to the right. Politics is a capricious beotch.

Saw that, too. The patriotism issue is still a problem as well. With the Rebublicans "whispering" about possible terror attacks in the near future I think some are reacting as planned to the fear factor. Some of the same people who say out loud that McCain is a warmonger privately want him in the hot seat if we're under threat.

Silly kittybunny, the former Obama supporters who are deeply, deeply concerned about how Obama would trash the fourth amendment if he became President will rejoice at McCain's steadfast defense of the entire Constitution. If they can get him elected, that is. If they can get him elected.

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So, in hrebendorf's book, the only answer is for the left to capitulate to Obama. Otherwise it's the left's fault for electing McCain.

One could also look at the poll as demonstrating that supporting left/progressive positions -- in other words, acting like a Democrat -- is more politically beneficial to Obama than is pandering to the right. One could therefore conclude from the poll that Obama has made a mistake by pandering to the right.

Clearly that's beyond the pale for good Party members like hrebendorf.

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Long Live The Party...

Of course you are still arguing that the Democrats should never have given up supporting slavery on the grounds that all the people fled to the Republican Party.

Dem4Life

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I think you just made George Orwell's day.

Freedom = slavery, I guess.

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Or perhaps you did.

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One could also look at the poll as demonstrating that supporting left/progressive positions -- in other words, acting like a Democrat -- is more politically beneficial to Obama than is pandering to the right.

Your comment perfectly expresses the self-aggrandizing, elitist arrogance of the far left. "Acting like a Democrat"--that's good for a laugh or two. And your conclusion, that Obama should pander to the far left instead of to moderate Democrats and independents, is deeply flawed. Obama can't win with 36% of the vote. That's just a fact. When's the last time the far left elected a president? Never? Ah, that's what I thought...

FDR, 1932.

"Everything he has done in the past has now been exposed as fake and/or opportunistic pandering. This is SOOOO depressing. How could he have fooled so many millions of people?"

I don't even believe he's black any more.

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But he never was! That was just a ploy to appeal to white voters tripping on white guilt. It's all part of the plan - no one would suspect a black guy of being another Reagan.

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Where's Snarkistan, anyway? Somewhere in the Middle East? Or sub-Saharan Africa? Or is it one of the Antarctic peninsulas?

That's right. Obama's actually a white guy from the Scranton. Suffers from reverse Michael Jackson disease. His real name is Patrick Vincent O'Connor--Irish as the day is long. But a Republican nonetheless.

No wonder he was hiding that birth certificate.

That's good. ;)

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Judging from the number of recommends, the bunnykat has been hit on the head by a nail... or something along those lines.

Great post.

"Call me an idealist--I don't care. Now that we're finally on the verge of putting a Democrat back in the White House, I have decided that I'm no longer willing to settle for less than absolute perfection."

Could you be Glen Greenwald in disguise? Uncanny.

Isn't it funny how OBama was "not black enough" but became "too black" after Rev. Wright.

And Obama is "too liberal" to the GOP but now "not liberal enough" to the Salon/Kos crowd.

Also funny is how easy it is to piss off the one-issue voter types -- the NRA, anti-abortion, and FISA fanatics. They don't care if Rome burns as long as they get 100% of their demands on their absolutist ideological issues.


It's the surest sign that Obama is his own man when neither side can successfully label him. It's one of the reasons I switched to supporting him.

What a brilliantly astute observation. =)

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"FISA fanatics." Brilliant. Believing in, you know, checks on the Executive, accountability, and the Fourth Amendment renders you a fanatic.

I used to laugh at all the talk about Obamabots and the rest of it. Some boards used to gnash their teeth about those who claimed Obama as Messiah. I laughed. Now I laugh less and less.

To the bots, of which hrebendorf and observer2 are two, apparently nothing Obama can do or say will dilute their Absolute Support and Adulation for The One.

I ask both of you: is there any position The One would take that would cause you to re-think your support? If so, what would it be?

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It would be interesting to hear a real critique of how exactly Obama's single vote is a trashing of the fourth amendment other than your mere repetition of this idea.

I suppose you can just link me to Glen and save all that hard thinking for your next reiteration of the same comment?

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I repeat my question.

Any positions that Obama might take that would sway your Undying Support for The One?

As for "hard thinking", the analysis is out there. Greenwald, Digby, David Kris, Ryan Singel, Mark Klein, and lots more have done more thorough analyses. You obviously have no desire to do any of that hard... reading. Nor do you care to describe where exactly any of the above-mentioned folks are, you know, wrong about the FISA abomination or those who support it. I know, that stuff is hard, and interferes too much with man-cruses on The One. I know. Reading is hard. Take it slow; we'll wait.

Let's start, though, with something fairly... basic.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I guess since the Framers didn't know from electrons, fiber optics, and disk drives, then scooping up Internet traffic, vacuum-cleaner style, and keeping it for later data mining is just fine. They couldn't possibly have meant that sort of thing.

Try not to be a condescending puke, it detracts from your argument. It doesn't make them any more or less valid, but it certainly makes people less likely to listen to you.

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Marty Lederman:

We've invited David Kris to publish some posts explaining the new FISA bill. Check out his first two posts, just below David Luban's important Commander in Chief post. David K. was Associate Deputy Attorney General in charge of national security issues from 2000 to 2003, and before that he was in the Criminal Appellate section of the Criminal Division. He was widely regarded as one of the very best lawyers in the Department -- and became one of the most trusted, most well-respected authorities in the Department on criminal law and electronic surveillance issues once he moved on to the DAG's Office. As I've written here before, he's extremely thorough, careful, and impartial. We're thrilled to have his input here.

David's posts have prompted me to think about what might be the most important questions the new law will raise. There is a general sense out there that this new law gives the government substantially more powers to surveille communications of U.S. persons -- perhaps in ways that implicate the Fourth Amendment -- but there is, thus far, very little understanding of how that might be so, and how the new surveillance regime will differ from the one in place from 1978 to 2001.

David has begun to answer some of the more important questions. The answers to others remain hidden in the shadows and the vagaries of the law -- and some might never become public. But I think that the answers must be at the heart of any serious assessment of what Jack calls the "New Surveillance State" under which we will be governed very soon. I would be very grateful to David and other readers and bloggers -- and perhaps even the Congress! -- if they can provide further insight into what those answers might be. [This reminds me: The most troubling thing of all about the new statute is probably that virtually no one outside the executive branch has the slightest idea what it authorizes, or how, exactly it will work in practice. Folks such as David and I can provide our best guesses, but this opaque legislative process shares nothing in common with the extensive, transparent debate that occurred during the three years that FISA was under consideration. ...

But in any event, let's start with the key questions, below the fold . . .

QUESTION ONE: Why has the Administration been so desperate to "modernize" or to circumvent FISA, when its surveillance capabilities were already so extensive: (i) FISA doesn't regulate international-to-international phone calls at all, as long as a U.S. person in the U.S. is not a target; (ii) FISA doesn't regulate any communications intercepted overseas, even if they are international-to-domestic; (iii) to the extent FISA covers international-to-international e-mails intercepted from facilities in the U.S., everyone agrees it should not, and thus that would be an uncontroversial fix (at least assuming there's some way to identify such e-mails in the first instance); and, most importantly, (iv) the FISA Court must, and does, regularly authorize NSA surveillance whenever the agency can demonstrate probable cause that the target of its surveillance is a foreign power (including al Qaeda) or an agent thereof.

In light of all these significant authorities, why the desperate rush to legislate?

David provides the answer to this question, I think: The NSA wishes to be able to engage in what he calls "vacuum-cleaner" surveillance of U.S. facilities in circumstances where (i) there is no way of knowing in advance which calls are wholly international and (ii) there is no way of knowing in advance which of the targets of such vacuum-cleaner surveillance are foreign powers or their agents. The new law apparently will allow this sort of vacuum-cleaner surveillance by authorizing any and all surveillance "targeting . . . persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States to acquire foreign intelligence information." Under this new standard, there's no need that the surveillance have any connection to al Qaeda, or terrorism, or even to national security. The only substantial requirements are that someone overseas be a "target" and that one "significant purpose" of the surveillance be to acquire "foreign intelligence information," which is very broadly defined to include most anything that occurs overseas and in which the federal government might have an interest (including information necessary to protect against the full range of foreign threats to national security, including both international terrorism and espionage, and information with respect to a foreign power that is necessary to the national defense or foreign affairs).

This sort of "vacuum" surveillance could not be approved under the old FISA scheme, which requires either that the calls be wholly international, or that the interception be made overseas, or that the NSA demonstrate evidence in advance that the target is an agent of a foreign power. Under the new law, the NSA can engage in surveillance where none of those three criteria are met.

I'm giving up on tags, here's the link:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/06/key-questions-about-new-fisa-bill.html

Internal italics and other formatting have not been preserved. The bolding is my own emphasis. Read the original; the formatting and links are there. And more analysis. Sorry, but you're just going to have to... read a little.

Remember that the language of this bill was unveiled on a Thursday (after Hoyer's office denied repeatedly that a lot of the language that wound up in the bill was in the bill), and the House voted for it the next day. After, like, two hours of debate.

Yeah, real transparent, that. It's almost as if they didn't want people to know what was going on.

Now if you want to trust the Executive, including The One, with that kind of power that -- well, nobody knows exactly what it is, do they, because it's all still secret -- I find that... touching.

Me, I prefer a thorough understanding and debate on a bill that threatens to authorize such sweeping powers to monitor communications, including those of U.S. citizens. (You did read that little Fourth Amendment quote, didn't you?) That's a debate that hasn't happened, because the bill was rushed through after secret backroom negotiations, greased by plenty of telecom cash.

But hey, I guess you're fine with that. Like I said, I prefer to know about such sweeping authorizations of spying powers by my own government. I remember COINTELPRO, Hoover, Nixon and the rest. But if you don't, and prefer to trust The One, then have fun, comrade. Ignorance is Strength.

If you don't like Obama, there's plenty of other choices. Like John McCain and his 0% ACLU rating. =)

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Sorry. My bad. I forgot that any criticism of The One or his positions means you're not going to vote for him or you're going to vote for McSame. By all means, we must all shut up whenever The One takes a position, because any dissent impedes his chances.

Thanks, comrade.

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Troll. Quit your pointless raving and go do some real work:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/time-to-get-to-work-on-fisa.php

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If it's me you're referring to as a "troll", I've been doing "real work" on this abomination for the last two weeks, which is about when the shit hit the fan with news of Hoyer's dealings.

And sites like dailykos, firedoglake, and digby's blog have been posting suggestions and discussion of real work long before you got round to it.

Observer2 is pulling the same shit downthread. Every time someone asks, "Okay, what line would Obama have to cross before to cause you to reconsider your Loyalty or even voice a little peep of dissent" you guys pull these kinds of evasions and ad hominems -- you certainly never answer this basic question.

Dismissing people as "trolls", and their dissent as "pointless raving", armchair psychoanalyzing a supposed "over-eager obsession" to be "cynical and negative about Obama" is the strategy of people who have run out of arguments.

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Troll. Quit your pointless raving and go do some real work:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/time-to-get-to-work-on-f

I have been, fool.

A full nine days before you got round to actually thinking about working on this, I posted this:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/turning-up-the-heat-on-nationa.php

But you didn't pay attention then, did you? Only when it threatened the political prospects of your precious Leader did you decide you had to post something to distract attention from his sellout.

Fucking hypocrite.

""FISA fanatics." Brilliant. Believing in, you know, checks on the Executive, accountability, and the Fourth Amendment renders you a fanatic."

If the shoe fits. Anyone trying to bullshit us that *law* can in anyway undermine the Constitution is full of it. A law is a law. It can be overturned by a new law, can be safely ignored by the executive if they like, and can be overturned in court. This is not an ammendment.

Executive overreach is a FAR bigger problem than some lame revamp of FISA. And all you are pissed about is the telecoms get off. That's it. That's all hero Feingold is planning to strip out of it. (If ya'll wanted to punish AT&T so badly, cancel your cell phone contract!)

But the best way for the One-Issue-Voter zealots to ensure that executive overreach continues to udnermine the balance of power is to help McCain get in there by lots of in-fighting, posturing, handwringing about how much you hate Democrats and are going to take your ball and go home.

Actually, I suspect this is more about egos. How Greenwald and Kos can feel important and intimidate pols with their power and influence.

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"If the shoe fits. Anyone trying to bullshit us that *law* can in anyway undermine the Constitution is full of it."

Right, observer2. Of course! I mean, it's not like Congress has ever passed an unconstitutional statute before, now has it?

God, what fucking ignorance. Of law, of history, of politics.

Go ahead, just try taking this statute up before a Scalia-Thomas-Roberts-Alito-Kennedy Supreme Court.

I'm sure that lovely gang of five will see to it that the Constitution is fully upheld.

If the foot fits.... eat it.

*sniff* *sniff* I smell snark!

Goes great with a 2008 Rec. :)

Bunny:
I like Obama and agree that much of the sturm und drang coming from the left is overdone. I generally trust his instincts and don't begrudge his attempt to demonstrate his centrist bona fides, as any good politician must. And your post cleverly exposes the self-defeating self righteousness of some of his erstwhile supporters on the left.

A few points of my own.

Some of the frustration with Obama comes from Hillary supporters (or those like me who supported her tepidly but defended her avidly) who endured months of vitriolic denunciation of the Clintons' "triangulation" their centrism, their betrayal of progressive causes, their willingness to say or do anything to get elected, etc. Despite his less than stellar record on some issues, Obama was embraced wholeheartedly by the left, even as many of us pointed out that his positions were as much, if not more, centrist than HRC's. Now, in some quarters, the same traits Obama has shown that were vilified in the Clintons are embraced by the same crowd.

Additionally, Obama is in one sense reaping what he sowed. By presenting himself as a reformer who would transform politics, while leaving the specifics somewhat vague, Obama encouraged unrealistic expectations among some on the left. Of course, the evidence of his centrism was always there to see. But Obama raised the bar under which he is now being judged.

Finally, these aren't exactly trifling issues. Obama's turn to the center has been, to say the least, pronounced. As Paul Krugman pointed out in his latest column (which should have credited my own blog, I must say in all modesty), with the Republican brand so badly tarnished, this election carries the possibility of a real realignment. By embracing a vague mantra of change while supporting safe, centrist policies, Obama actually jeapardizes his chances of effecting the real, lasting change many of us hoped for. To quote Krugman (who, I say again, owes me a debt of gratitude):

"The Reagan-Clinton comparison suggests that a candidate who runs on a clear agenda is more likely to achieve fundamental change than a candidate who runs on the promise of change but isn’t too clear about what that change would involve.

Of course, there’s always the possibility that Mr. Obama really is a centrist, after all.

One thing is clear: for Democrats, winning this election should be the easy part. Everything is going their way: sky-high gas prices, a weak economy and a deeply unpopular president. The real question is whether they will take advantage of this once-in-a-generation chance to change the country’s direction. And that’s mainly up to Mr. Obama."

"By presenting himself as a reformer who would transform politics, while leaving the specifics somewhat vague, Obama encouraged unrealistic expectations among some on the left."

Not those of us on the left with realistic expectations. Not all Obama supporters "drank the kool-aid" - in fact, there were no beverages actually served. When he speaks of loftier goals and ideals, change and transformation it is not meant to be specific. Those things, by definition, cannot be. That was the beginning. Big rallys, big speeches, even bigger crowds of supporters finding themselves engaged in ways they never imagined could happen. Bringing in young people, new voters with open minds and hearts. Believing in America. What a concept.

We are in another phase now. The phases have actually changed in subtle ways all along, and will continue to do so. A campaign, primary or general, is a living, breathing thing. It must change with the shifting tides and circumstances that surround it. If it does not, it dies.

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As much as I like to think of my self as a liberal and a "leftist" I find that the push to any extreme ends up in a vicious cycle of re-polarization.

I hope that we can reunite somewhere in the middle and I no longer have to listen to my "conservative" friends talk about how they will never compromise any of their beliefs or philosophy.

I give, you give. We meet in the middle. To run as a lefty or a righty overlooks that the majority of this country is truly somewhere in between.

FISA is a read herring and the idealists are getting sucked right up into it. the FISA deal was foregone in essence if not law and we need to focus on the criminals which are in the current administration. Telecoms will do what they have been doing for years - sharing data with the government. FISA has been rubber stamping warrants since its inception. Now technology makes it all that much harder/easier to do the review process (particularly at the national security level).

I place bets that Obama will leave part of our forces in Iraq as well, yet I still will heartily vote for and campaign for the evil centrist. I guess I forgot to take my kool-aid today.

FISA is a read herring and the idealists are getting sucked right up into it.

To paraphrase Tom Hanks' character in A League of Their Own, "There's no idealism in politics."

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By presenting himself as a reformer who would transform politics, while leaving the specifics somewhat vague, Obama encouraged unrealistic expectations among some on the left.

Agreed and good point. I never really expected him to be a miracle worker, but I can see how people could get their hopes up. I always took him at his word when he said he was an "imperfect vessel" for peoples' hopes and that he would likely do things that supporters didn't agree with. But I still believe once he's in office, he'll live up to much of what people are expecting of him. First, though, he's got to win the election.

In today's climate, I do think he could afford to run farther to the left than he has so far. But I learned long ago not to question his team's strategy. Nearly every time I've second-guessed them, they've proven me wrong.

Not that I'm singling any particular person out, but it's worth pointing out that pretending Obama can do no wrong does NOT help him win the election. He can't learn from his mistakes (and nobody denies that he's an extremely bright and capable guy well-equipped to do so) if nobody points them out to him. Look how much better he did on Clark today. And I suspect he also may now ending up voting against the FISA garbage if immunity isn't stripped.

He's the one who claimed he'd be running a bottom-up campaign (and by leaving alone the anti-FISA group on his site he's going a considerable distance towards backing it up- can you imagine a Republican tolerating that?) So why not take him at his word and try to make sure information is flowing in both directions? That's surely the best way to take him seriously as our future President.

Absolutely. Well said.

There is not a human being on the planet who can do no wrong. We are flawed, we are capable of extreme things of the most horrific nature. And the most beautiful. Most importantly, though, we can learn and evolve.

Barak Obama does that very well.

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Do you think Obama is reading and learning from your comments here?

By the way, if anybody thinks people around here are too hard on Obama, you should go take a gander at the crazy Hillary diehards at TalkLeft. Over there it's like the primary season never ended.

"The dream is over"
-John Lennon

"I vomit a little in my mouth when fogu2 quotes me."
-John Lennon

(It's all in good fun! You know we love you!)

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Look at his newest avatar - there is clearly no need to pamper that tool.

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Hmmm...Obama seems to be reaching out to people whose views differ from his!! I'm shocked!!!

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Reaching out and pandering are two different things.

hey, Pangaea, you omitted that the 60606 zip code is in Chicago and thus Obama reps it in the US Senate. LOL.

Dr. Zaius has always been a true American hero for all apes to admire. We honor his service. Cornelius shouldn't even go there. What was he thinking?

;)

Cornelius wasn't thinking straight bacause he was secrectly drinking extra "grape juice plus."

Sadly, the evidence continues to mount. Given your new info, we can conclude that Hell can freeze over.

Oh, Dr. Z, had you only revealed the truth about humans well before the end of the first movie, we wouldn't have had to endure all of the subpar sequels...

I wish this was a little bit funny...

But I am sick of all expression of conviction and action in protest of Senator Obama's change in postiion of FISA etc. being labeled as 'extremist' and 'reactionary' because that is usually what we see on FOX news.

I have every right to be angry with Senator Obama for his shift on FISA. Why? Because this bill is a serious problem for us... further admonishing criminal behavior, giving away more freedom, and adding to executive power... right off this adminsitrations wish list. If you feel comfortable with that... lucky you.

I have every right to be angry with Congress for being so complicit with the eroding of our democracy by their lack of action and enforcement of the constitution.

I, for one, never said, I wouldnt vote for Senator Obama because of these things. I am not promising him my vote at this point because I am disillusioned now.... I'll wait and see if he holds enough integrity left by the time we vote.

But tell me to shut up because you would prefer that we all play along and I will scream my right to express what I feel is true. Freedom of speech... well you know where to look that up. I think it's still in there.

"I have every right to be angry with Congress for being so complicit with the eroding of our democracy by their lack of action and enforcement of the constitution."

Yes, you do. But why are you so angry with one junior Senator? I understand you want his vote to be as yours would be (please remember no one has voted yet in the Senate), but why the obvious anger?

You should never, ever shut up. Scream at the top of your voice about what you believe. Especially as a Democrat, we love that kind of thing. That's exactly the point! If you don't feel it here, go elsewhere. If you don't feel it there, keep moving. No one decides what you think but you.


wish this was a little bit funny...

What? And break precident for the entire thread?

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Does your state have Senators? You should write to them. Tell them to vote for the Dodd-Feingold amendment to strip immunity from the bill and tell them to vote for the Bingaman amendment. Write to Senator Obama if you like (although, if you're not an Illinois resident, you're not a constituent). Ragging endlessly about this on a public message board accomplishes almost exactly nothing. Someone was kind enough to pass this along to me the other day. I'm kindly passing it along to you:

http://xkcd.com/386/

It's the point of netroots to inspire people to action? What action are you trying to inspire people to? Staying home on election day? You've got to keep the function of things in mind.

==But why are you so angry with one junior Senator? I understand you want his vote to be as yours would be (please remember no one has voted yet in the Senate), but why the obvious anger?==

Because this vote is an obvious litmus test of his liberal and libertarian sensibilities. I was hoping for someone who shares what I consider to be the historic American value of liberty, plain and simple. Instead, we seem to be getting someone who mounts a tedious argument, as to why likely false security should trump real liberty. That's the same position that has been the mantra of the current administration for years, and the one I frankly find morally abhorent, as well as logically, rationally and historically wrong.

If he can't even bring himself to vote against warantless, unconstitutional spying on Americans, what kind of liberal is he? And if he can't stand on the side of liberty in an important, hostoric, constitutional vote, my interest in him as a candidate, is an order of magnitude less. He has just become boring, trivial and opportunistic. Kerry and Clinton's Iraq war vote comes to mind.

I wrote all of this up in a letter to the good Senator on his website, but got a form response urging to donate before the Monday's monthly deadline, so his monthly totals would look good.

"Because this vote is an obvious litmus test of his liberal and libertarian sensibilities. I was hoping for someone who shares what I consider to be the historic American value of liberty, plain and simple."

I understand how seriously you take these issues, and you should. But remember, if you support him you must know that you will not always agree with him. Or his votes, decisions, etc. , which may go against your grain. Will you still support him as the best person for the position as President?

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Gosh, hr. You're right. Don't criticize The Leader. Accept all of his positions. He is the Leader, He is Right.

Thank you for your instructions on being a good Party member, comrade.

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Criticize him. Call his office. Write him letters. Tell him he's a shithead. But PLEASE--spare the rest of us your pointless, endless whining. YOU'RE PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS. MESSAGE RECEIVED. NO NEED TO RESEND.

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Sorry, dude. When you put up a post about the "pointless, endless whining" of liberals and progressives who dare to criticize The One, don't be surprised if those of us who are in the "critical" camp don't shut up or walk away, or let you get away with your straw man arguments.

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Woooh. I tried to hold my breath til Obama turned back into the messiah but I just I couldn't do it. Maybe I can stamp my feet or cry my eyes out til then but I dunno.

Your point?

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It's a fact-free ad hominem.

But I suspect you already knew that.

==I tried to hold my breath til Obama turned back into the messiah but I just I couldn't do it.==

Is there anything that you would consider a troubling position from your "chosen" candidate?

In other words, are you supporting the "man" or the policy that he is likely to represent? The inside of the book or the cover?

I like Obama and voted for him. Part of my enthusiasm was my hope that he represents a different kind of politics, different from Kerry and Clinton. His recent realignments toward the right (past the center, in my opinion) seem very standard, calculating moves to prepare for the general election, after a liberal infused primary campaign. Unfortunately, he has chosen a very important constitutional issue to do this. As a teacher of constitutional law, he must understand the importance of this vote, yet the crass political considerations seem to be more important. It is not a mark of a maverick leader, but of a tired and unprincipled standard issue American pol.

Depressing.

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depressingly simple analysis.

I keep asking, and I notice few have done it. Did you read the bill?

At what point is Obama actually "shredding the 4th"?

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So.... you think it's a good bill?

Why?

Other than that The One supports it.

Or maybe that's enough.

Impressive fodder. Beyond that, somewhat useless. And it really takes up space...

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I don't get it either. So it may give civil immunity (so people can't sue for millions) big deal.

It does not give CRIMINAL IMMUNITY. That is the important thing here. We can still lock up anyone at the telecoms for their part in war crimes violating the 4th amendment of the constitution.

So what is the big freaking deal?

You all sound like Hillary screaming about mandates. It is the only way!!! (remember that?)

Remember the response? It was the art of what is possible. It is a balancing act. Bringing 1978 Fisa up to 2008 technology standards for national defense while as the same time protecting our constitutional rights.

BunnKitty, you are beeeeauuutiful!!!

[dropping belt with swords {{{kisses kitty head between the bunny ears}}} puts sword belt back on again]

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Careful - look what taking off yer weapon belt got Jesse James...

Ha! ;-)

I have missed you. Very much!

I wish you would come back more often.

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Oh gosh, I'm blushing. But deeply honored. :) Now to the ramparts:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/time-to-get-to-work-on-fisa.php

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Oh gosh, Cricket, I think I'm blushing. But deeply honored. :) Now to the ramparts:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/time-to-get-to-work-on-fisa.php

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Read either one of them--they're both true. :) Why does this message board software suck so much?

Don't forget Congress. Math is a pesky thing. Still need a "reasonable" majority.

Reply to an earlier post, anyway...

This was good.... very good!

ah well

"I hope that we can reunite somewhere in the middle and I no longer have to listen to my "conservative" friends talk about how they will never compromise any of their beliefs or philosophy."

I'm not sure if you were replying to me - but...


This works for me, no matter to whom you are speaking -

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Rabbikitty

I knew a Rabbi named "Kitty" once, but she was a reform rabbi, whereas I am in no doubt that our chimerical interlocutor is orthodox...and I believe that nose came from a surgeon.

Why are the netroots foaming at the mouth, you ask? Because it's been so damn long since they won, they forgot how to win, and take the traditional posture of standing on the sidelines tearing down the candidates for not being their fantasy. Obama never was a fantasy - he has a background, a record, an agenda and a platform. Vote for him or vote for McBush, but get outta fantasyland, Democrats!

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Oh, of course. It's the netroots -- not, say, the DLC -- who've been around for 30 years, losing elections the whole time. Who knew the netroots lost the election for Mondale?

Riiiiiight.

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Rally behind The One, no matter what he says or does, no matter how odious. That's what the Bots will tell you. Of course it ignores a fundamental precept in human (and other animal) psychology: Reward good behavior, sanction bad behavior.

Markos:


Obama will be fine without my contribution, and he may even still get it before this thing is said and done, but it would be at a time when he has done something positive. That's called rewarding good behavior. And if that opportunity fails to arise because Obama goes on a Sister Souljah'ing rampage, then no worries. Chances are good that the DNC would get the money instead. But at this time, I simply have no desire to reward bad behavior. Some of you don't care about his behavior, or don't think it's bad behavior, or whatever. I didn't ask any of you to follow suit, and don't care whether you do or not. I didn't pull him from the Orange to Blue list. I'm not going to start praising Nader or Barr. I'll still vote for him. Yadda, yadda, yadda. At the end of the day, I'm pretty irrelevant in the whole affair. Obama is going to raise a ton of dough and win this thing whether I send him money or not.

Ultimately, he's currently saying that he doesn't need people like me to win this thing, and he's right. He doesn't. If they've got polling or whatnot that says that this is his best path to victory, so much the better. I want him to win big. But when the Obama campaign makes those calculations, they have to realize that they're going to necessarily lose some intensity of support. It's not all upside. And for me, that is reflected in a lack of interest in making that contribution.

Meanwhile, Arianna Huffington on why moving to the "middle" is for losers.

Not that I buy the idea that, for example, trashing the Constitution is a "centrist" position. Unless you define "centrist" as "between the current positions of the Democratic and Republican Parties", which I emphatically do not. A great deal of polling suggests that the positions of actual Americans is well to the left of the conventional wisdom of the Beltway political class and media, in both parties. For example, on government

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(hit "send" by mistake)

...spying on its own citizens without warrants and on telecom immunity.

As Jim Hightower likes to say, all you'll find in the middle of the road are dead skunks and yellow stripes.

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I know damn well I put the /blockquote tag AFTER the paragraph ending in "making that contribution."

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Digby:

The Strange Bedfellows Campaign is really gaining steam. The reason, of course, is because we are watching a sell-out of epic proportions happen right before our eyes and people are angry.

We hear a lot about how people want change in Washington. It's assumed by the Village media to mean that everybody is just desperate to stop fighting and get along --- comity, compromise and good feeling between good friends. I'm sure there are people who feel this way, first among them Washington wags and hostesses, who love a big bipartisan guest list.

But there is just as much reason to believe that the change voters want is actually an end to the back scratching and glad handing that characterizes the bipartisan symbiosis between the political and corporate world and the incumbent protection racket that makes it possible. Nothing illustrates that corruption better than this FISA fight.

Pace Godwin, the idea that it's a good principle to indemnify corporations from law breaking when its done at the behest of the government is getting close to the definition of fascism --- the joining of corporate and government power, beyond the scope of law, in the name of national security. We should not go there. Judging from the amount of money raised in a very short time for this campaign --- and more to come from the libertarian side of this argument --- there are people in this country who actually do care about these things. And with the new technology, they are able to organize and raise money to make their voices heard.

Today, Glenn Greenwald and Matt Stoller and Howie Klein call upon Senator Obama, as head of the party, to lead on this as dday has been doing for the past couple of weeks [Internal hyperlinks omitted -g]. They point out in particular that Obama has decided to intervene in the primary in Georgia's 12th District and back reactionary incumbent John Barrow, one of the worst FISA sell-out, Bush Dogs in the House, over progressive challenger Regina Thomas, on the eve of this vote.

Stoller writes:

70% of the primary voters in GA-12 are African-American. Barrow is white and has $1.3 million, Thomas is a progressive African-American and a state legislator, and has very little money...As Obama consolidates his power within the party, note who he is bringing with him in terms of economic policy and foreign policy, and note who he is protecting politically.

It is up to us to create a progressive check on Obama, and we might just have our first opportunity.

Thomas is a wonderful progressive candidate who Blue America has endorsed enthusiastically.....

With Obama's recent appointments of centrist and conservative people to his economic and foreign policy teams and his endorsements of such reactionary creeps as Barrow in the primary, it's probably a good idea for progressives to start pulling on our end of the rope a bit. I think it will help him, not hurt him.

Bolding is mine; italic replaces blockquotes in the original post.

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Alternatively, you can just post a link to the article, along with a little teaser snippet to induce people to read it. Far be it from me, however, to suggest that your Internet etiquette could use a little polishing. Also, sometimes if I think something is really great, I'll put up a brand new post about it. The advantage being that this thread is about an hour away from being pushed off the recommended list, and all your careful cutting and pasting and reformatting will be lost along with it.

Just saying...

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Of course I could be an obvious troll, in which case this thread could be considered fair game for all the rude, off-topic, cut and paste thread hijacking you can possibly muster. I cite the Chino Blanco Open Thread Proposal of June 13, 2008:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/a-better-class-of-troll.php#comment-2902511

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If there's an earlier precedent, could someone please let me know? I like to make sure this stuff is all legal and well-documented. :)

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Oh look! A Netiquette Cop! How cute!

Of course, your little lectures on net.politeness might just have a shred more credibility if you didn't go around calling people who dare to disagree with you fucking pussies (at least twice, leftie pantywaists, homos (or "looking" like homos, based on an AVATAR, no less), amid other fine examples of consideration and politeness. Way to elevate the discussion. Just keep on keepin' it on point, my boy. You're doin' a heckuva job.

blockquote isn't enough for you. Why the technicolor ? We get it, Obama is not pure enough for you.

One would have to be CATatonic to cast a vote for McLame. There are so many BUNNYfits to voting for Obama I can't begin to list them here.

The CATaclysm that would occur with a McSame win would devastate the country. Obama would be so BUNNYficial to the US of A.

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Tee AND Hee.

Rec'd for the snarky comments alone.

==We get it, Obama is not pure enough for you.==

Just curious...what would be your "Red Line" for questioning the Leader?

If it isn't warantless surveilance of American citizens and indemnification of law breaking by corporations on the "say so" of the President, what can he theoretically do to piss you off?

???

What if Obama personally strangled your pet rabbit to death?

What if Obama chose GWB as his VP?

What if Obama grew wings and flew high up in the sky and dropped water balloons on your kids birthday party?

What then, you naive Obama-cultists! What would you say then!!! Aha, I got you!!! He's unmasked as not being perfect and hypothetically capable of disappointing you!!! Now go home, don't vote and keep out of trouble, kids!

Just curious why the over-eager obsession on your part with how you can find a way to be cynical and negative about Obama?? (You sure you aren't one of those GOP concern trolls sent in here by Rove & Co?)

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Here is none other than Arianna Huffington on your topic:

In a Los Angeles Times article detailing Obama's attempts at "shifting toward the center," Matt Bennett of the centrist think tank Third Way says that Obama is a "good politician. He's doing all he can to make sure people know he would govern as a post-partisan moderate."
But isn't being a "good politician" as it's meant here exactly what Obama defined himself as being against? Instead of Third Way think tankers, Obama should listen to this guy:

"What's stopped us is the failure of leadership, the smallness of our politics -- the ease with which we're distracted by the petty and trivial, our chronic avoidance of tough decisions, our preference for scoring cheap political points instead of rolling up our sleeves and building a working consensus to tackle big problems.... The time for that politics is over. It's time to turn the page."
That was Barack Obama in February of 2007, announcing his run for the White House. "I know I haven't spent a lot of time learning the ways of Washington," he said that day, "but I've been there long enough to know that the ways of Washington must change."
Was that just "overheated and amplified" rhetoric?
The Obama brand has always been about inspiration, a new kind of politics, the audacity of hope, and "change we can believe in." I like that brand. More importantly, voters -- especially unlikely voters -- like that brand.
Pulling it off the shelf and replacing it with a political product geared to pleasing America's vacillating swing voters -- the ones who will be most susceptible to the fear-mongering avalanche that has already begun -- would be a fatal blunder.
Realpolitik is one thing. Realstupidpolitik is quite another.

I would call that a serious warning, wouldn't you?

==Just curious why the over-eager obsession on your part with how you can find a way to be cynical and negative about Obama?? (You sure you aren't one of those GOP concern trolls sent in here by Rove & Co?)==

I find it stunning that Leader cult of personality runs so stong in ostensibly liberal circles. It did not take long for someone who has perfectly legitimate concerns, from the liberal side, about Obama's current political direction, to be viewed with suspicion, as someone with inadequate respect (love?) of the Leader, perhaps even a "spy".

I also find it stunning that a serious constitutionsl issue, that actually involves the important rights of all Americans is completely trivialized as something that the Leader has to back from "practical" considerations of "winning". Anyone who strays from this "ends justify the means" approach (isn't it something we criticize in the current administration?) is labeled an "idealogue", who demands "purity".

It would appear that for many "winning" is far more important than upholding core principles. I always thought that this desease was more prevalent among the "law and order" Republicans.

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I've been rather shocked at this, myself. During primary season I saw not only relentless Obama-bashing at sites like correntewire.com (I'm not even mentioning Taylor Marsh, I visited that site about twice before giving up), but relentless characterization of all Obama supporters as having bought into the cult of personality you describe.

Now I'm really starting to wonder. I'm seeing on this board some very sad examples of the personality cult.

A bunch of us, like me, have been Obama supporters but are willing to recognize when he goes off the rails, to his detriment and our own. (My prior support for Obama is a matter of record on this blog and elsewhere.) We're unwilling to suspend our own judgment and just assume Obama Knows Better.

Some commenters on the threads have been channeling the Taylor Marshes of the world, albeit more subdued. For them, Obama can do no right.

And then.... there's those who apparently see criticism of Obama as treason. Now, belatedly, some are beginning to suggest that we, you know, call Obama's office or something. That's certainly a good idea, as far as it goes (and, of course, I did all that stuff over a week ago). But any discussion of the direction the Obama campaign seems to be moving, a direction that justifiably causes concern among many progressives, is out of bounds. It's chilling, frankly.

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It did not take long for someone who has perfectly legitimate concerns, from the liberal side, about Obama's current political direction, to be viewed with suspicion, as someone with inadequate respect (love?) of the Leader, perhaps even a "spy".
You are bang on there! That is why I call Obama "the nerd's Mussolini".

Ah the Return of the Knee Jerk Liberal....I thought the species was extinct

What in the name of all that's unholy would you think we went extinct? We're just hiding until this Neocon Era is over so that we can come out again and eat your children.

Whaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Back to the la-bor'-a-t'ry, Eye-gore! Quickly now, before the villagers with the pitchforks and flaming trucheons can seize us and our new creation! Whaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

==Ah the Return of the Knee Jerk Liberal==

Since when is defending American's freedom from warantless snooping is a uniquely liberal position?

Are there any issues that you are willing to demand support from your candidate for or aren't there?

Or is winning by "The Party" the only thing that matters?

Oh, no, Eye-gore! Can it be that our lovely creation has escaped?

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What Obama is doing, has done, is as American as apple pie, it is called "bait and switch".

And as another great American once said, "there is one born every minute."

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I am having a certain schadenfreude with all the people who are beginning to wake up to the possibility that their beloved leader might just be a fake.

I don't expect people to say, "gee David, you were right all along". Like some Indian scout,I was picking up signs of something phony for months now and have taken endless crap for sharing my doubts in this forum.

I am reminded of the people who went off to join the International Brigades that fought in the Spanish Civil war in 1936 and then, when the USA finally went to war with Hitler in 1941, they weren't admitted into the army because they were judged to be, "premature anti-fascists"

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Here is something to read, quite thought provoking

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