UNCOMPROMISING POLITICS and NADERISM (How's that workin' out for ya?)
For the past few weeks, as Barack Obama has moved to solidify his nomination among the party faithful while, at the same time, reaching out to the most crucial voting bloc of 2008--Independents and disgruntled Republicans--I've watched the Democratic Party begin to split upon its usual ideological lines, much as it did, say, in 2000 and in 2004.
At first, I tried to find one word to sum up what Obama is trying to do, as well as one word to describe the thousands of angry Democrats who have risen up in righteous indignation at what they consider to be an ideological betrayal over such issues as the recent FISA bill.
So I went to the dictionary and looked up: PRAGMATIC.
It said, "concerned with the practical consequences of actions or beliefs."
Practical consequences. Of actions or beliefs.
But I wanted one word to sum up what that meant, so I went to the Thesaurus online, which provided its own definition of the term: "having or indicating an awareness of things as they really are."
THINGS AS THEY REALLY ARE.
Hmmm. Interesting. The Thesaurus listed such synonyms as: "down-to-earth, hardheaded, matter-of-fact, practical, tough-minded, unromantic."
Yes, that makes sense. A pragmatic person takes an unromantic outlook on life and deals with things as they really are. That is not to say that a pragmatic person does not dream of things as they can be, but he or she knows that, in order to bring about change, it will have to be done incrementally. Baby-steps, if you will.
Pragmatically.
This is because human nature recoils at the idea of dramatic change all at once. Most people consider dramatic change to be threatening to the social order upon which they depend. When dramatic change is threatened--as we saw in the '60s--most rank and file people react by doing such things as electing Richard Nixon president, if for no other reason than he promises to keep things as they are.
Yeah. That about sums it up.
So then, I wanted to find a word that would describe IDEOLOGICAL.
Because it seemed to me that the opposite of pragmatic is ideological--when one puts his or her ideals above pragmatism, standing on principle, as it were, to the expense of all else, in order to make a grand point or gesture.
So I asked my online Thesaurus to provide synonyms for "ideological."
And it was stumped.
It said, "Do you mean...ILLOGICAL?"
In other words, to an online provider of synonyms for most words in the English language, the best it could do to come up with a word that meant the same thing as "ideological" was "illogical."
And this is perfect, actually, because right now, we have what may go down as the MOST ideological administration in this country's history, and there is none, believe me, that has ever been more illogical.
(Even Richard Nixon's.)
But I kept digging because hey, words are my life. I found a word that seemed close enough to "ideological," so I decided to see what kinds of synonyms were listed for IDEALISTIC.
Yes, someone who is ideological is, by definition, idealistic. It was, after all, highly idealistic for George W. Bush to actually think that if he basically forced democratic elections on violent third-world countries that somehow they would come up with Thomas Jefferson for a president or prime minister. Instead, in Palestine and in Iran, to name a couple, they elected the most violent extremist candidate on the roster.
Oops!
So I looked up the definition of "Idealistic," and came up with this: "not compatible with reality."
In other words, if you are highly idealistic in your politics, your views are most likely not compatible with reality. Synonyms include: "quixotic, romantic, starry-eyed, unrealistic."
Which brings me to Ralph Nader.
Ohhhhh, how soon we forget, eh?
That's the problem with revisionist history.
Although I am not disputing that George W. Bush stole elections from both Al Gore in 2000 (Florida) and John Kerry in 2004 (Ohio), the truth is that--especially in 2000--the vote-count was razor-thin close. Ridiculously close. Close enough that the only way for him to really win was to steal it.
But you see, it didn't HAVE to be that close now...did it?
Because as I recall, especially in 2000, what I heard was many many disgruntled Democrats such as Michael Moore and legions of others, claim that they didn't like Al Gore's middle-of-the-roadness as they saw it. They thought he was betraying liberal ideals. They thought he might even be TRIANGULATING. And they were pissed, really pissed.
So they decided to teach the Democratic party a lesson.
Yeah, I know you think the Hillary supporters came up with that one all on their own, but sorry. We've seen it before.
Everybody knew--I mean EVERYBODY--that there was no way Ralph Nader and his "Green" party could possibly win the elections of 2000 and 2004. Even he set as his highest goal, 5% of the total vote.
But he kept yammering on and on about how there really was no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties...Remember that?
Or are you too young? Because if you are, please allow me to enlighten you.
His main premise was that major party politics was so corrupted by big corporations and so much alike in their basic platforms (uh-huh) that the only way to REALLY change politics was to elect a third-party candidate, a true Independent, which is what he presented himself as being.
And all these disgusted, disgruntled liberals decided hell with it...I'm tired of seeing the Democrats tack to the center. They can't count on my vote, the corporate hacks. I'm voting for Nader.
That'll show 'em, you said.
I heard you. Don't deny it.
So you taught the "centrist" Democrats a real lesson there didn't you?
Nader received almost three million votes in the 2000 election. Estimates are that 40% of those votes would have gone to Gore. I think that is a low-ball estimate, but to be fair, I'll go with it.
In Florida, the key state, Nader received 97,488 votes. If only 40% of those went to Gore, that would still be 38,995 votes, which would have been enough to give Gore the state, since the final count, conducted by a nonpartisan newspaper after the Supreme Court decision, gave Bush Florida by only 537 votes. So Gore still would have won by well over 38,000 votes in Florida--and that's not even counting the rest of the 1,160,000 votes nation-wide that represent the modest 40% of Nader's votes that would have gone to Gore had he not run.
(More, if you think 40% is low, and I do.)
And if THAT had happened...Well, Bush couldn't have stolen the election then, because he'd've had to own the secretaries of state in a whole helluva lot more states than just Ohio and Florida...wouldn't he?
So...I've got a question for all you idealistic Nader-voters and the younger 2008 counterparts:
HOW'S THAT WORKIN' OUT FOR YA?
You made your ideological point. You protested by voting for a man you knew could not be elected. And we got George W. Bush, who has proceeded to destroy everything you and I ever believed in--law by law, war by war, preserved wilderness by preserved wilderness, hurricane by hurricane, Supreme Court justice by Supreme Court justice.
People who complain that they will protest-vote for McCain because their candidate didn't get the nomination, or who complain that they will no longer support Obama because he voted for or against something that, earlier, he had voted against or for, are highly idealistic--make that--illogical, because of two reasons.
ONE: He won't be able to do ANYTHING except vote on bills in the Senate if he is not elected, period.
And in this election, he can't get elected without the Independent vote. McCain is the only Republican candidate with a tinker's chance in hell of getting Independent voters, and he is already Roving himself up to snatch those folks into the Republican fold.
In 2004, Bush took a 50-plus-1 majority and used it as a MANDATE to do as he pleased after four years of, well, doing as he pleased.
The results have been horrific for our country.
Already they are painting Obama as a flaming liberal so far to the left he's practically a socialist, because they know that Independents are moderates by nature...CENTRISTS, if you will. Independents and disgruntled or moderate Republicans fear extremists on either side, and as Bush/Rove have proven time and again...as an electorate...they are easily fooled.
And TWO: So many of our electorate is too young to know what it means to have a functioning Congress that actually works together to get things done. There was a time when congresspeople and senators would argue bitterly on the House or Senate floor, then get together afterward and go out for drinks, where they would hammer out compromise on legislation before the body. There were many close friendships between political rivals.
THIS is how we got landmark legislation such as the Civil Rights Act. Don't assume that because we had a Democratic president then and a Democratic congress that it was all some sort of kubaya cakewalk, because it was not. Conservative Dems and Republicans lined up against liberals all the time.
But what was understood was that, without compromise, THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT.
There HAS to be pragmatism in politics in order to get anything done.
And when you have pragmatism...then you have a situation where conservatives and liberals will not be happy because the bill that results is not exactly what either of them wants.
But it will be a bill.
When Newt Gingrich and Tom DeLay and their cronies came in with their so-called "Contract With America," they threw out all that. It was idealism all the way down, with ideologues controlling the agenda AND the media message.
Over the course of the years, moderates of both parties were forced out, and we were left with GRIDLOCK. Opponents on either side of the aisle screaming at each other and MONTHS going by with nothing getting done on ANYTHING. Literally calling one another names on the floor. Regarding rivals not as opponents, but as ENEMIES.
This is what happens when ideologues rule. Rigidity. Inflexibility. Inability to compromise.
I've even invented a little word for it: NADERISM.
Obama has stated repeatedly that the bills he has agreed to vote for now are not the same bills he opposed earlier. Many of the details he did not like have been removed. And no, he's not happy with them as they stand. But he knows that if he takes one ideological stance after another during this campaign--lining himself up solidly with idealistic liberals hungry for their shot--he will alienate millions of voters who will worry that an Obama administration would come in and sweep away the American way of life in a dramatic change they're not comfortable with.
He promises change. And he will deliver change.
But he can't do that if his own party drags him down.
If you prefer Naderism to pragmatism, you are being, well, unrealistic. It is unrealistic, first of all, to expect him to even get elected in the first place, and it is highly unrealistic to assume that even with a Democratic congress and senate that he will get everything he asks for if he does so along ideological lines.
Not all Democrats are the same as every other Democrat, and plenty of them come from Red states where they're hanging on for their political lives. They will compromise when asked--as they did on the new G.I. Bill--but when rammed up against the wall, they will bow their necks and stiff out their arms as surely as the worst conservative out there.
Baby-steps, boys and girls. Baby-steps.
I've read so many blogposts and op-eds calling into question Obama's principles and moral stamina, accusing him of triangulating and calculating and betraying all we hold dear in order to get elected.
"We thought he was different!" they whine.
He is different. But he is not stupid.
Chris Dodd and Russ Feingold, for example, are fine senators, and they can afford, politically, to stand on principle when it comes to the FISA bill, among other things.
After all, they aren't running for president.
Dodd WAS running the last time he filibustered FISA, but he's not running now, why? He couldn't get the votes. It is no reflection on the man; I am a big fan of his--BUT, in the pragmatic world of politics, you HAVE to do some calculations on occasion if you truly want to get elected.
You have to make some sacrifices. You have to back down once in a while. You have to be willing to compromise at some point. This is the real world of politics.
Am I saying that you should never show political courage? Of course not. But you have to pick your battles. You have to weigh, in your own soul, which battles mean the most to you and which you would be willing to fight even if it cost you the presidency.
Recently, political enemies have accused Obama of compromising on his promise to end the war. He is not and he has not. He is making a realistic assessment of the situation as it exists, but he will not back down on bringing the war to an end, period.
He will back down--for now--on FISA. He believes that there are safeguards in the new bill to strengthen it. Critics say they are not strong enough. Maybe not. But if he is elected president, then those safeguards will at least be ENFORCED.
This is the real world of politics. There is always room for idealism and ideals, of course. But at some point along the line, we've got to GOVERN.
Half of the country does not agree with the liberal point of view. If we want to get anything done in this government other than curses hurled across the aisle, that has got to be taken into consideration. THEY are going to have to compromise. WE are going to have to compromise. Some on both sides will never be happy, no matter what.
But the vast majority of people in this country WILL.
And that, my friends, is a democracy.
So grow up. Forget about protest-votes or withdrawing your support from our candidate.
Put your real-world glasses on, and vote for the man who really will bring about change, but only if he gets elected first...and then, he'll do it bit by bit.
Pragmatically.
But he WILL do it eventually, and that is what we all want in the long run...isn't it?
At first, I tried to find one word to sum up what Obama is trying to do, as well as one word to describe the thousands of angry Democrats who have risen up in righteous indignation at what they consider to be an ideological betrayal over such issues as the recent FISA bill.
So I went to the dictionary and looked up: PRAGMATIC.
It said, "concerned with the practical consequences of actions or beliefs."
Practical consequences. Of actions or beliefs.
But I wanted one word to sum up what that meant, so I went to the Thesaurus online, which provided its own definition of the term: "having or indicating an awareness of things as they really are."
THINGS AS THEY REALLY ARE.
Hmmm. Interesting. The Thesaurus listed such synonyms as: "down-to-earth, hardheaded, matter-of-fact, practical, tough-minded, unromantic."
Yes, that makes sense. A pragmatic person takes an unromantic outlook on life and deals with things as they really are. That is not to say that a pragmatic person does not dream of things as they can be, but he or she knows that, in order to bring about change, it will have to be done incrementally. Baby-steps, if you will.
Pragmatically.
This is because human nature recoils at the idea of dramatic change all at once. Most people consider dramatic change to be threatening to the social order upon which they depend. When dramatic change is threatened--as we saw in the '60s--most rank and file people react by doing such things as electing Richard Nixon president, if for no other reason than he promises to keep things as they are.
Yeah. That about sums it up.
So then, I wanted to find a word that would describe IDEOLOGICAL.
Because it seemed to me that the opposite of pragmatic is ideological--when one puts his or her ideals above pragmatism, standing on principle, as it were, to the expense of all else, in order to make a grand point or gesture.
So I asked my online Thesaurus to provide synonyms for "ideological."
And it was stumped.
It said, "Do you mean...ILLOGICAL?"
In other words, to an online provider of synonyms for most words in the English language, the best it could do to come up with a word that meant the same thing as "ideological" was "illogical."
And this is perfect, actually, because right now, we have what may go down as the MOST ideological administration in this country's history, and there is none, believe me, that has ever been more illogical.
(Even Richard Nixon's.)
But I kept digging because hey, words are my life. I found a word that seemed close enough to "ideological," so I decided to see what kinds of synonyms were listed for IDEALISTIC.
Yes, someone who is ideological is, by definition, idealistic. It was, after all, highly idealistic for George W. Bush to actually think that if he basically forced democratic elections on violent third-world countries that somehow they would come up with Thomas Jefferson for a president or prime minister. Instead, in Palestine and in Iran, to name a couple, they elected the most violent extremist candidate on the roster.
Oops!
So I looked up the definition of "Idealistic," and came up with this: "not compatible with reality."
In other words, if you are highly idealistic in your politics, your views are most likely not compatible with reality. Synonyms include: "quixotic, romantic, starry-eyed, unrealistic."
Which brings me to Ralph Nader.
Ohhhhh, how soon we forget, eh?
That's the problem with revisionist history.
Although I am not disputing that George W. Bush stole elections from both Al Gore in 2000 (Florida) and John Kerry in 2004 (Ohio), the truth is that--especially in 2000--the vote-count was razor-thin close. Ridiculously close. Close enough that the only way for him to really win was to steal it.
But you see, it didn't HAVE to be that close now...did it?
Because as I recall, especially in 2000, what I heard was many many disgruntled Democrats such as Michael Moore and legions of others, claim that they didn't like Al Gore's middle-of-the-roadness as they saw it. They thought he was betraying liberal ideals. They thought he might even be TRIANGULATING. And they were pissed, really pissed.
So they decided to teach the Democratic party a lesson.
Yeah, I know you think the Hillary supporters came up with that one all on their own, but sorry. We've seen it before.
Everybody knew--I mean EVERYBODY--that there was no way Ralph Nader and his "Green" party could possibly win the elections of 2000 and 2004. Even he set as his highest goal, 5% of the total vote.
But he kept yammering on and on about how there really was no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties...Remember that?
Or are you too young? Because if you are, please allow me to enlighten you.
His main premise was that major party politics was so corrupted by big corporations and so much alike in their basic platforms (uh-huh) that the only way to REALLY change politics was to elect a third-party candidate, a true Independent, which is what he presented himself as being.
And all these disgusted, disgruntled liberals decided hell with it...I'm tired of seeing the Democrats tack to the center. They can't count on my vote, the corporate hacks. I'm voting for Nader.
That'll show 'em, you said.
I heard you. Don't deny it.
So you taught the "centrist" Democrats a real lesson there didn't you?
Nader received almost three million votes in the 2000 election. Estimates are that 40% of those votes would have gone to Gore. I think that is a low-ball estimate, but to be fair, I'll go with it.
In Florida, the key state, Nader received 97,488 votes. If only 40% of those went to Gore, that would still be 38,995 votes, which would have been enough to give Gore the state, since the final count, conducted by a nonpartisan newspaper after the Supreme Court decision, gave Bush Florida by only 537 votes. So Gore still would have won by well over 38,000 votes in Florida--and that's not even counting the rest of the 1,160,000 votes nation-wide that represent the modest 40% of Nader's votes that would have gone to Gore had he not run.
(More, if you think 40% is low, and I do.)
And if THAT had happened...Well, Bush couldn't have stolen the election then, because he'd've had to own the secretaries of state in a whole helluva lot more states than just Ohio and Florida...wouldn't he?
So...I've got a question for all you idealistic Nader-voters and the younger 2008 counterparts:
HOW'S THAT WORKIN' OUT FOR YA?
You made your ideological point. You protested by voting for a man you knew could not be elected. And we got George W. Bush, who has proceeded to destroy everything you and I ever believed in--law by law, war by war, preserved wilderness by preserved wilderness, hurricane by hurricane, Supreme Court justice by Supreme Court justice.
People who complain that they will protest-vote for McCain because their candidate didn't get the nomination, or who complain that they will no longer support Obama because he voted for or against something that, earlier, he had voted against or for, are highly idealistic--make that--illogical, because of two reasons.
ONE: He won't be able to do ANYTHING except vote on bills in the Senate if he is not elected, period.
And in this election, he can't get elected without the Independent vote. McCain is the only Republican candidate with a tinker's chance in hell of getting Independent voters, and he is already Roving himself up to snatch those folks into the Republican fold.
In 2004, Bush took a 50-plus-1 majority and used it as a MANDATE to do as he pleased after four years of, well, doing as he pleased.
The results have been horrific for our country.
Already they are painting Obama as a flaming liberal so far to the left he's practically a socialist, because they know that Independents are moderates by nature...CENTRISTS, if you will. Independents and disgruntled or moderate Republicans fear extremists on either side, and as Bush/Rove have proven time and again...as an electorate...they are easily fooled.
And TWO: So many of our electorate is too young to know what it means to have a functioning Congress that actually works together to get things done. There was a time when congresspeople and senators would argue bitterly on the House or Senate floor, then get together afterward and go out for drinks, where they would hammer out compromise on legislation before the body. There were many close friendships between political rivals.
THIS is how we got landmark legislation such as the Civil Rights Act. Don't assume that because we had a Democratic president then and a Democratic congress that it was all some sort of kubaya cakewalk, because it was not. Conservative Dems and Republicans lined up against liberals all the time.
But what was understood was that, without compromise, THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT.
There HAS to be pragmatism in politics in order to get anything done.
And when you have pragmatism...then you have a situation where conservatives and liberals will not be happy because the bill that results is not exactly what either of them wants.
But it will be a bill.
When Newt Gingrich and Tom DeLay and their cronies came in with their so-called "Contract With America," they threw out all that. It was idealism all the way down, with ideologues controlling the agenda AND the media message.
Over the course of the years, moderates of both parties were forced out, and we were left with GRIDLOCK. Opponents on either side of the aisle screaming at each other and MONTHS going by with nothing getting done on ANYTHING. Literally calling one another names on the floor. Regarding rivals not as opponents, but as ENEMIES.
This is what happens when ideologues rule. Rigidity. Inflexibility. Inability to compromise.
I've even invented a little word for it: NADERISM.
Obama has stated repeatedly that the bills he has agreed to vote for now are not the same bills he opposed earlier. Many of the details he did not like have been removed. And no, he's not happy with them as they stand. But he knows that if he takes one ideological stance after another during this campaign--lining himself up solidly with idealistic liberals hungry for their shot--he will alienate millions of voters who will worry that an Obama administration would come in and sweep away the American way of life in a dramatic change they're not comfortable with.
He promises change. And he will deliver change.
But he can't do that if his own party drags him down.
If you prefer Naderism to pragmatism, you are being, well, unrealistic. It is unrealistic, first of all, to expect him to even get elected in the first place, and it is highly unrealistic to assume that even with a Democratic congress and senate that he will get everything he asks for if he does so along ideological lines.
Not all Democrats are the same as every other Democrat, and plenty of them come from Red states where they're hanging on for their political lives. They will compromise when asked--as they did on the new G.I. Bill--but when rammed up against the wall, they will bow their necks and stiff out their arms as surely as the worst conservative out there.
Baby-steps, boys and girls. Baby-steps.
I've read so many blogposts and op-eds calling into question Obama's principles and moral stamina, accusing him of triangulating and calculating and betraying all we hold dear in order to get elected.
"We thought he was different!" they whine.
He is different. But he is not stupid.
Chris Dodd and Russ Feingold, for example, are fine senators, and they can afford, politically, to stand on principle when it comes to the FISA bill, among other things.
After all, they aren't running for president.
Dodd WAS running the last time he filibustered FISA, but he's not running now, why? He couldn't get the votes. It is no reflection on the man; I am a big fan of his--BUT, in the pragmatic world of politics, you HAVE to do some calculations on occasion if you truly want to get elected.
You have to make some sacrifices. You have to back down once in a while. You have to be willing to compromise at some point. This is the real world of politics.
Am I saying that you should never show political courage? Of course not. But you have to pick your battles. You have to weigh, in your own soul, which battles mean the most to you and which you would be willing to fight even if it cost you the presidency.
Recently, political enemies have accused Obama of compromising on his promise to end the war. He is not and he has not. He is making a realistic assessment of the situation as it exists, but he will not back down on bringing the war to an end, period.
He will back down--for now--on FISA. He believes that there are safeguards in the new bill to strengthen it. Critics say they are not strong enough. Maybe not. But if he is elected president, then those safeguards will at least be ENFORCED.
This is the real world of politics. There is always room for idealism and ideals, of course. But at some point along the line, we've got to GOVERN.
Half of the country does not agree with the liberal point of view. If we want to get anything done in this government other than curses hurled across the aisle, that has got to be taken into consideration. THEY are going to have to compromise. WE are going to have to compromise. Some on both sides will never be happy, no matter what.
But the vast majority of people in this country WILL.
And that, my friends, is a democracy.
So grow up. Forget about protest-votes or withdrawing your support from our candidate.
Put your real-world glasses on, and vote for the man who really will bring about change, but only if he gets elected first...and then, he'll do it bit by bit.
Pragmatically.
But he WILL do it eventually, and that is what we all want in the long run...isn't it?
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With all due respect Deannie, it's really unfair to start raising the spectre of Nader here. Of those who have criticized Obama recently, only a miniscule proportion of them are threatening to vote for Nader. This is mainly just an argument among Democrats about issues that happen to be important to Democrats. Most of the critics voted for either Obama or Clinton in the primary campaign - not Nader, not Kucinich, not anyone else on the far left. They are going to vote for Obama in November. They are not holding their breaths and stomping their feet and making themselves turn blue. They are just trying to stand up and fight for their values.
We all recognize that sometimes political reality demands some unpleasant compromises. But I think those who are convinced Obama is acting out of pragmatic political necessity in all of these recent cases should really try to make that argument more cogently, because I and others find the case unconvincing. I don't recall a great outcry from the center in favor of telecom immunity, for example, and I have yet to encounter a convincing argument for the conclusion that if Obama had stuck firmly with his previously articulated opposition to telecom immunity, it would have hurt him politically.
Most of what I'm hearing are not arguments for the correctness of Obama's decisions, but something closer to arguments that Obama is an infallible political wizard, and that we should simply take the soundness of the Great Man's decisions on faith. After all, who are we mere voters to attempt to fathom the inscrutable abyss of the Obama genius?
Isn't it possible that Obama has simply screwed up here, and that the criticism will actually help get him back on track? I think that Obama should draw a lesson from this flap. While he is busy doing all those things to reassure voters in the center, he can't neglect to give the left something to get excited about from time to time. People are much more likely to overlook pragmatic deviations from their preferred positions if they feel they are not being taken for granted, that their interests are generally being looked after and that there are reasons for hope and excitement.
July 5, 2008 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deannie's point for 2008 is not about Nader, it is about Clinton supporters who say that will vote for McCain.
July 6, 2008 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have no problem with constructive evaluation and discussion of Obama's positions and policies. But, for God's sake, let's get this man elected.
July 5, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
A large part of the problem is this. MOST americans don't know what the Hell FISA is or why there is a big flap over it. The only thing that the media is reporting is that Obama is losing support from it. THAT's the damaging part. If you hear "Obama is in trouble", "Obama is in trouble", "Obama is losing support" more and more the people who do't pay attention to the issues but pay attention to the trends, (You know, the vast majority or AMERICA) it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. That's the danger Our wild protest against Obama instead of against CONGRESS. That is what will cause us to lose the election and more importantly lose all of the protections that we do enjoy from the FISA court.
July 5, 2008 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only thing that the media is reporting is that Obama is losing support from it. THAT's the damaging part. If you hear "Obama is in trouble", "Obama is in trouble", "Obama is losing support" more and more the people who do't pay attention to the issues but pay attention to the trends, (You know, the vast majority or AMERICA) it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
That's the part that's called "rewarding good behavior" and "sanctioning bad behavior." When you do the right thing, your support increases. When you do the wrong thing, your support decreases. Natural consequences.
That's the point at which the "pragmatic" Senator Obama, the one who, presumably, is "concerned with the practical consequences of actions or beliefs," the one who supposedly "has or indicates an awareness of things as they really are", might just wake up and realize the practical consequences of his actions or beliefs.
What's so ironic is that the Obama sycophants on the board want to shut up those who are justly incensed over his Constitutional sellout. In other words, they want to protect Obama from those pesky progressives and, therefore, from the practical consequences of his actions or beliefs.
July 6, 2008 3:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not that we want to protect Obama. It's that we want to protect america from another 4 years of Republican Rule. Which, I'm sure you'd agree with me would end up with even MORE erosion of the protections that you're fighting for.
Again, it's absolutism. Attacking the person who is trying to up hold MOST of your protections while at the same trying to use the best tools possible to protect this country will only make it easier for the person who wants to rid you of ALL your protections. This is what I'm saying, many of you would rather be Martyrs than Winners.
July 6, 2008 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why would anyone choose not to vote for Obama because they read in the paper that he's "losing support" over some esoteric bill they've never heard of?
People are going to vote based on the Economy, the Iraq war, Healthcare, etc. FISA is not going to change any of that.
You cowards are so obnoxious. The sky is falling every 10 seconds with you people. If any criticism is going to cost Obama the election, he was never going to win in the first place.
And look, we didn't schedule this vote. Peloci and the house leadership did. They knew (or should have known) that it would drive a wedge between Obama and the netroots, but they decided to do it anyway. Blame them.
July 6, 2008 6:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
If that was the case John Kerry would have won 4 years ago. If everyday issues REALLY mattered then republicans wouldn't have won 7 of the last 10 presidential Elections.
July 6, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
ARGH!
NIXON WORRIED CHARGES WOULD STICK
NIXON PROVED TO BE A REAL DICK
RALPHIE NADER HAD INDIE FLAIR
BUT LAST GOOD HE DID WAS COVAIR
LET'S GET OUT OF THE 60S! IT'S TIME FOR THE RAIDING 90S! PUT WENCH HILLARY IN THE US TREASURY!
ACQUIRE! MERGE! MARAUD! DILUTE! DILUTE!
ARGH!
July 5, 2008 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
......Isn't it possible that Obama has simply screwed up here, and that the criticism will actually help get him back on track?
No, Obama stated his FISA position at HuffPost. you are free to agree or disagree. We are in the middle of a General Election. Either Obama or McCain is going to be elected.
If you believe that there is no difference between the two candidates, continue in your outrage. The GOP has MSM in it's pocket. The fiscal and social Conservatives are solidifying behind McCain. Attacking Obama from the left serves only the ego and John McCain.
July 5, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Attacking Obama from the left serves only the ego and John McCain.
Bull. Obama was attacked by other Democrats - Clinton and Edwards supporters specifically - for month upon month upon month. And yet he's still standing, and he's ahead in the polls. Facing and reacting to criticism do not always make you weaker; they frequently make you stronger.
It's important not just that Obama win, but that the commitments he makes during the campaign be the right ones. Obama will make some bad calls during this campaign. When he does, they should be addressed openly so that they can be corrected. If Obama has right on his side, on the other hand, then by responding to his critics he will be forced to articulate his positions in a clearer way, and may even get a great inspiring speech or two out of the effort to fend off those critics.
July 6, 2008 12:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well the truth is this, Obama didn't REALLY start getting attacked until AFTER he ran his lead up through the 11 victories in February. That's when the Kitchen Sink got thrown at him. If Clinton had started her scorched earth campaign sooner (and actually contested the caucus states) there's a large chance we wouldn't be talking about Obama and his views on FISA right now. Some one quoted an episode of Fraiser.
"What does not kill us, makes us stronger. Unfortunately not everyone makes it to the latter portion."
We're no longer in the primaries. There's one shot, Nov 4. No recalibrating the message after a loss, no recovery speeches, no time to make it right. It's not the NBA Finals with Seven Games. It's the Super Bowl. It's either win or go home. That's what were faced with.
The conservatives and the republican base aren't happy about John McCain. Do you hear them. NOPE, they understand what's important, WINNING. They don't like his stance on immigration, they don't like his past opposition to gun laws, they don't like his past opposition to the tax cuts. They want him to have a press conference in ANWR and proclaim "Drill Here Drill NOW!" But he won't. They're not going to say anything to damage his chances OUTLOUD though. They'll whisper it amoung friends and neighbors, and trusted surrogates (people who are calling from the Heritage foundation to raise money). Many of them on the phone say "It's like having to chose between 2 liberals." You'll never hear that in the media. There was no outcry about the disenfranchised voters of the FIVE states who were penalized by the RNC for moving up the primaries. Again, they'd rather win and get some of what they want rather than lose and get none of what they want. Sometimes I think Democrats are more interested in Martyrdom than Victory. If you lose and get nothing you can always say "I told you so" if you win and you don't get what you want you just have to eat your beansprouts.
Saying that attacks from the left will make him a better candidate is like Hitting Nancy Kerrigan in the in the back of the knee and saying "Hey if she learns to skate one legged then She'll be that much better."
Do I think we should hold our leaders accountable, ABSOLUTELY. There are ways to do it without damaging the chance that we have to finally take back the white house and have a cooperative congress to support it. Write letters to ALL the senators that are supporting FISA. Talk about ALL of CONGRESS being spineless and caving on this issue. To single out one guy out of the 100 who will vote on this issue (who by the way hasn't even voted on it yet AND never broke his promise on what he said which was "I would SUPPORT a filibuster to remove the telecom immunity." He never said he'd be the one to do it.
Come on, let's keep our fights IN HOUSE and take back the White House!
July 6, 2008 3:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
We cannot hold Obama accountable for anything, if we don't first get the man in office. Because he will not have the power to enact ANY of the agenda that we are hoping to see put in place.
Let's not screw up our opportunity to get some real leadership in place. Another 8 years of Republicans in the White House is not gonna be pretty.
July 6, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
When can we hold Obama accountable? Is next year okay? But then there are the midterms. So maybe at the end of 2010. Although then there's the reelection. And we all know that 2014 will be a difficult year for the Democrats in Congress, judging from historical trends. And then we're going to want another Democrat elected in 2016.... Maybe we can hold him accountable when he builds his Presidential library.
Just to be clear, I'm a strong supporter of Obama. I used to be a strong Clinton supporter, and throughout her difficulties this election I held her accountable also. So please don't misunderstand me and think that I'm biased against Obama, or thinking about switching to Nader. I'm not. I just think that when people criticize efforts to hold Obama accountable now, they should be very clear about when they think it will be okay to hold him accountable. Because it seems that the logical extension of their argument is that we never can; We all hope that he's going to win in November, and if he does he'll continue to need our support. So it's important to recognize that we can both support him and hold him accountable.
July 6, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amen.
July 6, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh whatever, for all you know attacking Obama from the left only makes him look better to 'centrists' out there.
For all you know we could be doing him a favor.
Stop being such a baby. You kool-aide drinkers are so damn thin skinned!
July 6, 2008 6:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wrote on Thursday, that I thought that the Netroots uproar about Obama's stance on FISA had given the MSM the greenlight to define him as not a person with strong convictions, and that their week long drumbeat on that issue had probably cost him the election. Sure enough; in the Saturday edition; the NY times pinned the label on him in their editorial page. He has been defined before he could make a good first impression with the sceptical middle ground. That stuff sticks to a candidate, and I fully expect that the McCain camp will make good use of it, to keep on reminding people that not even Obama's base feel that he keeps his word. That is a campaign killer for a newcomer on the national scene.
Answer this: If Ted Kennedy does not agree with the positions that Senator Obama has taken on FISA etc, would you recommend that Ted Kennedy come out and publically denounce Senator Obama's stances? If it is OK for Senator Obama's base to do so, then surely they should be urging all elected Democrats to do the same thing. Do you get me point. Questioning the merits of our nominee, in public, at the start of a campaign to oust the Republicans, strikes me as being totally counter productive, and I am mystified as to why so many people actually thought it was a great thing to do.
Well, I hope that Obama can recover from it, but I do not have much hope that he can. I see the MSM killing him about not being trustworthy, and I see no one standing up for him. That is a lethal situation for a candidate to find himself in. Every nuance will now be spun by the media as having hidden meanings. Look what they just did with the simple word "refine". From now on he will be forced to keep on explaining what he meant about what ever he says, and the more he is forced to explain, the more it looks like he never speaks straight. That is how the game is played, and the Netroots forced him into that box.
McCain will make good use of their work.
July 5, 2008 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Questioning the merits of our nominee, in public, at the start of a campaign to oust the Republicans, strikes me as being totally counter productive, and I am mystified as to why so many people actually thought it was a great thing to do.
You're not alone there, liam. Not alone at all.
But have faith. I think you might be overreacting a tad. It's not lost for Obama. It's only July. We have months to go before the election, and despite FISA, he's still doing consistently well in the polls. Let's think positively, not negatively. Let's not continue to distract ourselves by continuing to get bogged down with these endless debates of circular logic. Instead, let's move forward and fight to make sure that Obama's message of hope and change stays alive. As much as you may think it is, it's not dead, and I don't think it's even remotely close to dying.
July 6, 2008 12:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Things looked much worse for Obama during the Wright fiasco. But then he gave a great speech on racism, and started to turn the coverage around. He'll turn this one around too.
But if Obama wants to avoid being labeled as a guy who changes his positions on important issues for the sake of political expediency, then I would suggest that he try to avoid, as much as possible, changing his positions on important issues for the sake of political expediency. He can't blame others for giving the MSM "permission" to label him a flip-flopper if he has just flip-flopped on an issue.
There are certain positions Obama has held all along that have tremendous appeal to the center. I have no problem with him placing renewed emphasis on these positions now that he is in the general election. But I don't see why he needs to invent new centrist positions that are at odds with his previously helf positions.
July 6, 2008 1:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Would you enlighten me as to the "new centrist positions" he's "invented"?
July 6, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right on. And is he allowed to change his positions based on new information, recent events, etc...? This new mantra that politicians must be Talmudic in their approach to policy is ridiculous, and impractical, as the blogger suggests. Things change, the opposition changes, international events occur...if a leader doesn't look around and see a changing environment and adapt to it, then they are not a leader. Right now the game is getting elected. That's the reality.
July 6, 2008 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama was the one who decided to flipflop. If it costs him the election, that's his fault, not ours.
Anyway, in the real world, elections are not won or lost on the basis of how the MSM "defines" candidates. The general election was over before it began. McCain lost on march 20th, 2003 (look it up). None of this bullshit is going to change a damn thing.
July 6, 2008 6:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
The fact that I have to look up a quote that will be EASY for McCain to swat away (since he's been saying the same thing consistently) "he was against the strategy they were using in Iraq and was in favor of the Surge. How will that lose the election if the MSM won't play the quote?
July 6, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm glad someone else got the irony in "The election won't be decided by the MSM...I have to a quote to prove it, which you have to look up yourself."
Also, for the love of all that is holy, DON'T USE THE FARKING FLIP-FLOP EXPRESSION. It was INVENTED by Republicans to take down Kerry (since your memory extends to March 2003, I imagine you remember the election as well). Why would you even want to go there? In fact, your use of the expression PROVES that the MSM defines candidates and shapes the electoral process in a massive, irretriveable way, since before that election the phrase "flip-flop" was not in the public lexicon.
July 6, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, those of us with sufficiently gray hair will recall that the 'Pubs used it against George McGovern in 1972.
July 6, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Some on both sides will never be happy, no matter what.
But the vast majority of people in this country WILL.
And that, my friends, is a democracy."
And that, ladies and gentlemen, will be a huge change from what we've endured - and the vast majority of people in this country have not been and are not happy - YET!
So, let's get Obama elected and well, as they say, that's a good start.
Thanks Deanie - As Always - Excellent post! THANKS.
July 6, 2008 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
How many times can we escape reality by blaming Gore's defeat on Nader? Gore lost the election not because of Nader, but because he could not energize the electorate enough. But no, it was all because of Florida, and that, in turn, was all because of Nader. Oh, come on, get real.
July 6, 2008 1:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Bill Clinton's impeachment, and lack of integrity (and fidelity) in his final years in office, also hurt Gore.
July 6, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Half of the country does not agree with the liberal point of view.
And that, I submit, is bullshit.
All Americans "disagree with", at the very most, is the label "liberal". But when you poll them, solid to huge majorities support liberal positions, as Alterman and Zornick demostrate on the page I linked to.
July 6, 2008 3:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
For the past few weeks, as Barack Obama has moved to solidify his nomination among the party faithful while, at the same time, reaching out to the most crucial voting bloc of 2008--Independents and disgruntled Republicans
How exactly does supporting the new FISA help bring in independents and republicans? I've seen plenty of Independentsdisgruntled republican who seriously cares about getting amnesty for telecom companies. Can you find any? Maybe if you could you might have an argument.
Right now, all you have is a bunch of whiny ranting. How exactly do you expect to convince anyone when you have such a whiny, self-entitled attitude.
Gawd, I swear the hair-pulling insanity of some people that other people would dare criticize Obama over his going back on his pledge is pretty pathetic.
*Telecom immunity is not a centrist position, it won't win him any votes
*Obama already voted against this the first time it came up, and because of that the GOP can try to portray him as "soft on terrorism" on this issue. Nothing he does now can change that. Not that it matters, then or now.
*This has nothing to do with being 'pragmatic', at least in terms of right vs. left, republican vs. democrat. (You could argue it dosn't make much sense to go up against the Dem house leadership right now)
*If Obama goes back on his promises during the campaign, it's going to make him look weak in the general election, whether that promise was to centrists, republicans, or the left. People will trust him less for going back on his word, and that's just a fact.
The people you should be mad at is Obama, who would suffer no electoral problems for sticking to his word, and the dem house leadership for forcing the issue during the middle of the campaign, and driving a wedge between Obama and the netroots. We didn't decide when to do this.
July 6, 2008 6:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a great piece. You have put together in one commentary all the points that we "pragmatic" thinkers have been trying to get across..FOR AGES!!! Baby steps.
We have been out in the cold so long that it is totally unreleastic to think that we can get into power and change everything overnight. It won't happen and it shouldn't happen that way.
As it stands right now, because the Dems have held the presidency so infrequently (since Truman) the American people are somewhat leery about trusting Democrats with the presidency. That's why our new Democratic president will need to take baby steps to push forth our agenda. And he will need our undying support to get there instead of this nattering, babyish, whininy and stomping of feet that we are seeing now.
It is counterproductive for Kos, Moveon and Fertik (Democrats.com) to take such grandiose public stands in opposition of our candidate. It's such grandiose opposition to Al Gore that gained us George Bush in the first place. And as you put it, 'How's that working out for ya?' They never learn.
July 6, 2008 7:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just a quick note for now. I scanned comments and will come back when I have more time, read carefully, and address.
But I just wanted to say real quick to Dan K that I did not mean to imply that I thought people were going to vote for Nader.
"Naderism" was a term I made up that referred to being so idealistic politically that any time a candidate changes positions, he's accused of flip-flopping or of betrayal or of being too much like the other party. Being "Naderistic" means casting a protest vote either for the opponent or for a third-party candidate who cannot be elected because one's idealistic standards are not being upheld by a given candidate.
I'm not sure Nader's even going to make it on the ballot this time.
Just wanted to clear that up. I'll be back later to read and reflect on all your OUTSTANDING comments. Even when you guys disagree with me or with each other, I love the intellectual quality of the debate.
You are all totally cool. And that's not a flip-flop ha ha.
July 6, 2008 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
You beat me to it by two minutes.
July 6, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Connie,
Thank you for writing this lengthy post and only mentioning Hillary once! You have come a long way baby!
July 6, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, this was a great post. I am getting antsy watching the Democrats start their 4-year cannibalistic ritual (where's Donnerpass?) If there is one thing I admire the Republicans for, and it might be the only thing, it is their ability to get behind a candidate and get him elected, knowing that campaigns are different from execution. I have noticed that it is the younger co-workers in my office who seem most enraged at Obama's lean toward the center. So, I am nervous that he not alienate them as they were critical to him getting elected. Us older farts need to teach them the lessons of compromise, pragmatism, and patience. Let's get him in office first. If he then persistently fails to keep his promises, that's a different story. But if doesn't get sworn in, it won't matter.
July 6, 2008 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are some great comments here, but I just want to add that my opposition to Obama's stance on FISA is based on pragmatism. Supporting the fourth amendment - it was in that incredibly popular document written by a bunch of old white guys - is not politically unfeasible, and the consequences of dismantling the fourth amendment are very serious. So my opposition reflects an "awareness of things as they really are."
July 6, 2008 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Anyway, in the real world, elections are not won or lost on the basis of how the MSM "defines" candidates."
Now, I gotta say, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Politics is nothing BUT perception. The MSM has allowed the GOP to define candidates for the past 20 years at least, maybe longer, and the Dems have been terrible at allowing themselves to be put on the defensive because of it.
A poor MSM definition of a candidate can get him killed politically--how many times did we see John Kerry windsurfing? That was supposed to be "elitist," when we never saw Bush doing one of many many elitist things he does all the time; nooooo, rather, we saw him clearing brush on the so-called "ranch" that he bought right before his first presidential campaign got started. His way of resurrecting Ronald Reagan's image--and it worked.
It was a lie, but it worked.
Perception is everything in politics.
July 6, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bullshit.
How many times did the MSM replay the "I was for it before I was against it" quote of John Kerry's in the guise of actual coverage? How many times did we see the picture of John Kerry windsurfing in the guise of reporting?
How many times did the media repeat the "more people want to have a beer with Bush than with Gore" finding during the 2000 election?
What should matter is a politician's positions on the issues, and his/her plans for the future. Unfortunately, sickeningly enough, that matters little at all.
The charges of "flip-flopping" that are being tossed around on the left will soon, I predict, be described in MSM as "Obama appears to be losing support even among his most ardent supporters", and will contribute to a perception of "He's starting to lose it".
If he had actually "flip-flopped" in the same spectacular manner of McCain, such charges would be understandable among the base. However, he hasn't "moved to the center", as has been endlessly and mindlessly repeated. His positions (with the exception of the immunity issue in FISA) have been pretty much the same.
We have the most interesting, inspiring and talented candidate we've had in quite awhile, and what are we doing to him? And why?
July 6, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
July 6, 2008 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Second this.
I feel your pain.
July 6, 2008 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fracking frelling tags!
By the way, CTVoter, I just adore you and your comments.
July 6, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right back atcha, Tena.
July 6, 2008 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
CT- The Democrats will never be in lockstep, like the Repugs, and I love that about us. But - the Repugs are good about not attacking their own candidates. And they managed to get a majority plus the presidency doing it that way. If they weren't so fucked up, they'd still be in charge.
Thank whatever gods and goddesses there may be that the Conservative Movement finally revealed the venality, mendaciousness and utter anti-Americanism at its core. If that hadn't happened, they'd still be winning and they'd run things until it did reveal itself. They killed themselves - we did not do it.
The Democrats just will not learn. And it's usually the left and that's how we became marginalized in the first place, people.
*heavyfuckingsigh*
Thanks for fucking it up for us right when we started to get a voice in the party. I doubt the leadership is going to want to listen to Glenn Greenwald anymore. If they do, they are as nutty as he is and I'm outta here.
July 6, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting point, this:
Unintended consequences.
Of course, if we're talking about President McCain at this time, next year, then it's possible a lot of leading Democrats will give a giant FU to the progressive left.
July 6, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen
Greenwald is taking the position that Taylor Marsh took against Obama in the primaries. Kos tells anyone who disagrees with his position on campaign contributions to f-off.
The right is coalescing. The right has the media in it's hip pocket. Obama faces the GOP and the MSM plus a general public that is ill-formed.
The right has produces effective phrases to simplify issues. "Tax and spend" and "Cut and run" are but two examples. MSM uses the phrases to describe Democrats. Attacking Obama from within is of no value. To people who say if Obama loses, it's his loss, do you really want Bush III?
The right is willing to tell any lie to get it's point across. Look at Fox News or the American Enterprise Institute. AEI has on it's payroll an author who published a book about the deceased crime associated with gun ownership that helped support the SCOTUS decision on the DC gun law case. The problem is that reviewers of the book could not find the data quoted in the book.
The author went so far as to create a sockpuppet who defended his book at multiple websites. The AEI kept the author in it's employ. The right is committed. I do not want to see a McCain Presidency.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/6/114226/8037
July 6, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, wow,wow.
I know not high literature but really how I feel. Is there any way this entire blog can be made mandatory reading for everyone who really wants to save the the country and world?
Talk about compromise!!!
Is Deanie correct?, That the most important thing, is to keep our ‘eyes on the prize’.
“Win baby win”. Don’t be distracted!
While we have difference’s about how we deal with specific issues the over arching story arc is WIN! Civil rights legislation is rightly the cause celeb for ‘baby steps’. Those of use involved know well, the role patience and perseverance played in our eventual victory.
And what of the honorable opposition?
Dan K raises the question is anybody infallible? How will Senator Obama know when he makes a misstep, if he only hears the feedback of the ‘echo’ chamber usually populated the fawning and tepid.
Gharlane makes the case for appropriate response based on ones actions. Should Senator Obama be shielded from this ‘bio feed-back’?
Dan K, rightly points out that tempered steel is the strongest. I was among the many who did not want Senator Clinton to suspend early, believing it would make Senator Obama a stronger candidate.
How appropriate, that the original post suggesting the necessity of compromise be the incubator of a blog that shows the benefits.
The points being both positions are correct, necessary and non-exclusive. We need to both keep our collective eye on the prize and our internal compass to make sure the winning doesn’t cost us our souls. Let’s have honest open debate about the things we don’t agree on. Our candidate is not so fragile, that he requires blind consent. Disagreement is not only tolerated but also encouraged in the search for better government.
At the same time let’s have these discussion in a way that elevate Senator Obama’s candidacy. Our candidate doesn’t have to be perfect to be the best choice for the president. Be aware that when we discuss policy disagreements with our candidate that’s what it is, POLICY DISAGREEMENT. Don’t feed the animals.
Our policy debates should be framed in such away that llam’s reasonable concern about giving ammunition to the right wing slime machine is mitigated.
Make sense?
July 6, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, but criticizing Obama when he is in error is not Naderism. If you are willing to give up the 1st and 4th Amendments in order to win power, how are you different from Republicans? The point of power is for positive change, not just for having power. Democrats willing to sell the party's principles for power are not persuasive to me.
An no, I don't accept the idea that we should just trust Obama or the crazier idea that he has a "secret plan" or the inane idea that he's only pretending and after Election Day he will walk into a phone booth and come out in a SuperProgressive superhero costume.
The authoritarian impulse is something you have to resist - not wallow in.
July 6, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The points being both positions are correct, necessary and non-exclusive. We need to both keep our collective eye on the prize and our internal compass to make sure the winning doesn’t cost us our souls. Let’s have honest open debate about the things we don’t agree on. Our candidate is not so fragile, that he requires blind consent. Disagreement is not only tolerated but also encouraged in the search for better government.
At the same time let’s have these discussion in a way that elevate Senator Obama’s candidacy. Our candidate doesn’t have to be perfect to be the best choice for the president. Be aware that when we discuss policy disagreements with our candidate that’s what it is, POLICY DISAGREEMENT. Don’t feed the animals.
Our policy debates should be framed in such away that llam’s reasonable concern about giving ammunition to the right wing slime machine is mitigated.
Make sense?"
Ramjett, you make perfect sense, my friend.
Of course Obama needs to be held accountable; of course he will make mistakes--as he himself admits--and in fact, he has opened up this Pandora's box of inviting dissent from within his own followers. All these things are right and correct.
However, as Ramjett so beautifully points out--we can register our disagreement with our candidate without savaging him or howling to the moon that he has somehow betrayed us or whatever. I'm sure he wants to know how his followers feel on things because I, for one, was asked to fill out a lengthy questionaire (sp?) on just that, for his campaign.
But Dems are really bad about--to use a cliche--throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Hold him accountable, yes. But threatening not to vote for him or making him sound CRIMINAL for disagreeing, (or for changing his position on a given issue), or threatening to "punish" the Democratic party for going along with it by voting for an opponent is destructive for our party and, ultimately, our country.
We can disagree all we want to on this issue or that, but OVERALL--we can't hand a victory to the Republicans with our own self-righteousness.
July 6, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously Deanie, thank you.
You continue to empower our movement to regain control of our nation with your thoughtful and timely commentary.
Your timing with this piece is just uncanny. Senator Obama smashing suddenly became the litmus test for 'true progressives'. Thank you for writing a piece asking us to reflect on our recent collective history of failure. And asking is this really what we want to do? Again!
My heart felt critique does not diminish my heart felt support.
Let's keep that in mind.
Win in 08
July 6, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen to this.
I really enjoyed reading this post and comments, Deannie Mills. Thank you.
July 6, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post. I'm getting tired of the whining and the direction it's taking us. Don't get me wrong, I oppose FISA as it stands and have complained. I think it's a reasonable time to do so, since the vote hasn't happened yet. But my support for my candidate remains the same. The problem is that the McCain campaign is leveraging this and also opening up avenues of complaints about perceived position changes where they don't exist. We don't want to start generating negative press for our candidate. Keep it in perspective. Disagreeing is one thing, looking like you will abandon the ship is quite another.
On a separate note CNN just reported that Canadians like Obama more than any of their own candidates! Now there's news we can believe in!
July 6, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just FYI
I'm a Nader voter and will
vote for him this year also.
We are not unrealistic
nor do we fit any of your
other slurs. Our moral values
and our fight for the right to
vote for the best candidate work
just fine for us thank you.
Considering that the Duopoly
has no scruples and lots of
resources to wage war against
our rights and principles, we
do rather well actually. I have no
desire to give any support to yet
another Duopoly clone who will be
as two-faced as all the others.
I am not a Democrat or a Republican
and very much hate both parties for
what they are doing/have done to this
country. I don't flip-off Obama because
of the silly propaganda that the
right-wing press puts out, but because
of his record and his total
disconnect from values I consider basic.
He has given numerous signals that he
will go further to the right and suck
up to every slimy corporate interest.
And once securely in office, he will
have no reason to keep faith with those
he started out courting months ago.
I don't think Democrats ever put as much
energy into making sure that their candidate
has his head screwed on right as they do
selling their terribly flawed front man.
July 6, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heya Mates. Signing on from London, where I have been since Friday night. This is a great post, Deanie, and I have to say that its contents wouldn't surprise many people in this town. In my limited conversations so far, Brits have expressed overwhelming admiration for Obama and excitement about his presidency but then they say, "but you guys won't elect him, he's too good. He's not ruthless enough." It's as if they expect American candidates and American presidents to be assholes now. Many liked McCain in 2000 but are very worried about him now. The antiwar sentiments are VERY strong here. They are very angry about how Bush policies have destabilized the Middle East and parts of Eastern Europe and they wish like hell that Americans would focus on foreign policy more than domestic "spats."
Londoners are very cynical about whether the Democrats have the "balls" to push their candidate through this time around. Democrats are the party of ineffectual handwringers, according to my cabbie this morning. On FISA, Londoners in particular are mystified at what the issue is. This is one of the most watched, surveilled populations on the planet. Why doesn't it bother them?--because by and large they trust their government and they trust Scotland Yard. They also view privacy and civil liberties differently--after all they have been attacked by other countries since time began. I find that interesting. Eight years of GWB has made us exceedingly suspicious of government powers--and rightly so--but it doesn't HAVE to be that way. Thanks again for a thoughtful post.
July 6, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cool! Thanks for reporting back from London, Kate. Enjoy your trip.
July 6, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
KateO, I can't thank you enough for this. I loved your comment so much I read it aloud to my daughter--out for a brief visit from L.A., but she lived in London a year and loved it. I thought your remarks about Brits not worrying so much about govt. surveillance--over here it's easy to forget that they HAVE been attacked since 9-11. (And that's not counting what they went through from the IRA all those years, or way back to the German bombings...)
I'm just saying that we need to pick our issues. We can get "all het up" to quote John Lennon, about this FISA thing but there are so many far more serious issues facing our nation right now and we can't forget the main thing--getting a Democrat in the White House. Right now that is THE most important issue.
I'm looking forward to Obama's trip abroad this month. I want the American people to see the excitement he can generate worldwide. We haven't had that in a long, long time.
July 6, 2008 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Deanie. I will continue to report, as I promised on a blog. I am here for a while, then headed to central England, Birmingham, which might be more conservative--can't say--then Dublin. I am asking people everywhere I go about what they are thinking about the American election. I'll try to write a more thoughtful, organized, blog, when I return. BTW, I'm here talking to other scientists about the relationships between PTSD, TBI, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's. Visiting a clinic in South London tomorrow that has a few TBI vets from Afghanistan. Trying to find patterns in bloodwork. Bedtime here. Good evening!
July 6, 2008 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bullshit. The reason people were pushed to support Nader was because Gore/DLC were so wishy washy in the first place. When people actually stand up for something and don't prevaricate, people see them as something other than cyphers.
July 6, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Deannie!
Taken from Senator Obama's statement on the FISA compromise, here is what it accomplishes:
1.“it is a marked improvement over the Protect America Act”
2.“an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue……
3.……the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over”
4.“It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance…”
5.“….makes clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people”
6.“It firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future”
7.“guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward”
“It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay.” Senator Barack Obama
In other words, instead of holding up progress by fighting to repeal retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies, we pass it now, as is, for what it CAN accomplish! Isn't it possible that even if we held this up in a long term fight to get the repeal, that George Bush could pardon the telecommunications companies upon exit from the White House regardless? I dont know, just asking.
July 7, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink