Bonus Round for Mike7Woodson on Abortion and Civil Liberty
Mike, my response to this is below, but first I need to clear up a couple of issues leftover from previous posts of yours.Yes I can name a nation state in which the disrespect for life has led to the erosion of civil freedoms less fundamental than life. Russia:
When you write that eviscerating or dismembering or stabbing in the neck an unborn human life is just patently wrong ... and We have no right to kill someone merely for coming onto our property, especially if we engaged in conduct that amounts to an invitation ... and compare mercenary wars to elective abortions, the we that are responsible for such 'atrocities' are women. So as one of the accused in the vigilante court of Mike, the Judge and Jury, allow me to have a few last words.
As you have heard in post in after post, if you really wanted to stop or at least limit abortions, you would be the head cheerleader for the contraceptive route, making them safe, affordable and available. Post after post, you ignore the one really good option for achieving your goal. I don't know why.
Instead, you insist on the legal route of banning abortions totally. Again, why you want to go down that path is unknown. But I can guarantee, and provide the studies if you so insist and I still care to show you, that the number of abortions will only decline marginally, and only in the number of poor women having an abortion.
I have had an abortion (post Roe), my mother has had one (pre Roe) and her mother had one. One third of the women in this nation have had an abortion. And if abortion is made illegal, one third of the women in this nation will still obtain one.
Why? Because when a woman becomes pregnant she makes a choice that is not based on the law or politics. Nor is it based on thoughts of life or death, either her own or the seed's that is implanted in her womb. The decision is usually based on a mix of practicalities and instincts that lead her to either accept the sacred chance she has been given or to delay or forever deny it, whichever is right for her.
Neither you, the law or politicians can change that.
Back to Russia.
I don't think anyone has denied the high abortion rates of the former USSR or Russia. However, the cause for the high abortion rates you gave was your opinion, not Rand's. Rand has an entirely different take on the causes:
Abortion became legal in the 1950's but when health planners recognized the problem and tried to distribute contraceptives widely, the poor quality and erratic supplies meant abortion remained the preferred method of family planning.WHY ABORTION BECAME THE PREFERRED METHOD OF FERTILITY REGULATION IN RUSSIA
Two influences have worked to keep Russian abortion rates high. First, Soviet ideology hindered the development and spread of effective contraception. Soviet ideology held that declining fertility rates were not typical of socialism and that socialist economic improvement would yield higher birth rates and lower abortion rates. Such views resulted in little effort to develop or distribute modern contraceptives. They also led the Stalin government, which equated power with population size, to prohibit abortion and to restrict contraception for nearly 20 years in an effort to fuel population growth.
The good news is that expanded family planning (contraceptives) has helped reduce abortion rates in Post-Soviet Russia.
It really is as simple as that.





Thanks for the research. Well said.
August 25, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great Post.
Here is the most reasoned argument I have ever read regarding the pro-choice stance. I thought I would share:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-filipovic/questions-for-prolifers_b_58563.html
August 25, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post and great article, mageduly. I really like introducing logic to an extremely emotional issue. Unfortunately, it all goes back to education, and a lot of people don't want to be confused by facts.
August 25, 2008 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seashell, "we" includes everyone who skews abortion into the false category of necessity for the great plurality of abortions. That is, abortion as birth control. Men and women are responsible directly or indirectly. No one is exempt.
However, another false reading needs to be corrected. You have assumed that by responsible, I in every case mean "held criminally responsible." I don't. Held responsible, yes, criminally, not necessarily. While homicide is a crime in many cases, not everyone has the mental state for murder who engages in abortion. Some do.
For the majority of couples, or individuals if the other isn't aware, there are more effective ways for taking abortion off of the table of options than merely outlawing it by criminal threat. Finding the best means requires a joint effort, however, that isn't going to happen so long as the extremes try to fix an intricate clock with left and right handed hammers which is the status quo now...on the left the hammer is abortion itself, a brutal and blunt killing response to the intricate and amazing reality of the existence of a new life connected to two people in the world. On the other is strict criminal liability: a hammer of fear in an emotional, moral and physical situation of great intricacy and intimacy that deserves a much more refined and flexible set of non-lethal alternatives to abortion.
I'm ignoring your contraception arguments because contraception is already fully legal and highly promoted, yet abortions continue in the millions per year. A better and more permanent solution than relying on pills or petroleum product technology is much needed. The contraceptive argument is so 70's; so disco. They've been around longer than that and still, here we are. Over forty years of contraceptive education hasn't brought abortion to the trickle it should be if contraception use was the solution for most people of a mind to get an abortion. Rather, the attitude for most of those years on the part of organizations promoting contraceptives has been pro-abortion as contraception's insurance policy.
The most effective future course for controlling the number of births is educating and training men and women that they are fully capable in their faculties, by their freedom, and especially together as a cooperative society of genders, of choosing not to engage in sex, and especially as a means of exercising reverence for life. This is the truly progressive view, believing that all are capable of this and that putting the bulk of resources behind raising the bar will inspire people to adapt their thinking and willpower to the higher standard over time. In addition, help-resources must be part of that.
In this approach, society will attach a greater reverence on life and intimate relationships that makes both non-disposable in the foundational ethics of most people. Putting the spotlight on men for a moment: it is a fact that men who are not trained in this sort of reverence for life are also not very reverent about the innate value of women. Many, many such men I've seen fleeing relationships, common law marriages, marriages and child support obligations because they've grown up hearing the BS argument that sex is just sex and it doesn't mean you have to consider a relationship with the person you have it with. The twistedness and near sociopathy of this false belief has led to countless broken homes and cynical feelings among too many of entire nation of innately special people. It is a disfigurement.
Ultimately we are most cynical about that which we've given up on about ourselves...that which we think we can't handle when we really can.
I don't address contraceptives because most people who obtain elective abortions to avoid the material and financial inconvenience of raising children already know about them. Either they chose not to use them or they chose to risk their failure in the case of the greatest number of pregnancies. There is nothing more to be done about that unless perhaps we manufacture beds that shock people who don't have contraceptives on their bodies -- and this absurd example highlights the technological dependence angle of majoring on the contraceptive argument. That angle holds human beings to the lowest common denominator treatment and expectation -- that a leash or a cage or a contraceptive is all that will work with them. Some counterbalance to their undeveloped will and conscience...and that's a recipe for perpetual stagnation in progress -- it is anti-progressive.
On the supply side, too many bluebloods (not all, that's for sure) on the right really don't want to end abortion because they see it as a means of controlling the "rabble" and the tax dollars they require of the corporate state, or in the alternative, make it a scandal for the rich and famous to be held to a common standard with everyone else should they get pregnant via an "indiscretion" that pollutes the line. They also need the religious fundamentalists in campaigns to retain party-affiliate power. There's no room in a constitutional democracy for such people, and yet there they are, warping our system to fit their monied will in more areas than just abortion. Mercenary war comes to mind; that war which postpones the responsibility to act on alternative patents when the ugly possibility of OPEC manipulation reared its head over thirty years ago merely to maximize exploitation of remaining fossil fuels left in the ground.
August 25, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Regarding Russia:
Your original charge to me was for me to name a country where the irreverence for life expressed in the will to allow abortions has led also to the abortion of less fundamental civil liberties than life. I named the USSR, cited RAND's data and pointed out that the USSR was an anti-civil libertarian nation state.
Stalin's desire to prohibit abortion was mechanical only, not reverential for life. He saw lives as tools, material "blobs of tissue" animated to serve ideology and some future utopia. He was a totalitarian. The post-Stalin years saw some of his extremes sanded down on the edges because of his obvious disdain for the very life that sustained his rule. However, the USSR remained a regime that subordinated life to ideology and the power of the "vanguard" so to speak, and abortion was just another tool for propping up the false ideology.
None of that said that abortions themselves cause deleted civil liberties less than life's; what I argued is that the mindset and attitude toward life that made abortion an acceptable policy also commonly fed the disrespect for freedoms and lives of the born.
August 25, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Many thanks to Tom, stillidealistic and mageduley for the support. It is greatly appreciated. And the article link from mageduley is a most informative read in logic - thank you. Does anyone know if there were any (logical) takers on the answers?
With 42 things to do and room for only 20, I'll get back to Mike here with a research link and other thoughts as soon as I can.
August 25, 2008 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink