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please do not live in denial...Obama once again falls short


This is not a new issue, but it is one that has been allowed to linger, for what reason I cannot imagine.

Senator Obama is eloquent, we saw that several years ago, and he has only gotten better.

But, in debate formats, or in formats not within his control, he simply underperforms.

This has been blamed on the media, how unfair ABC was, it has been blamed on horrid mind games of intimidation and brass knuckle politics by the Clintons, or on any number of scape goats.

Senator Obama, if he wants to be President, he needs to put some time in studing the great debates of generations past, get up to speed, understand your audience.

How, how can I listen to talking heads give the thumbs up to McCain?

The issues are with Obama, the need for change is palpable, but these debate confrontations are only going to get more pointed and more heated....standing pat is no alternative.

I have gone from disappointed Clinton supporter to one who vows to vote for Obama, but then I live in SC and a poll in our local paper yesterday cited a poll giving McCain a double digit lead, with only 15% of whites indicated as being Obama supporters.

Due to racism in good measure, along with good, old fashioned fear of the unknown, this will be a close election, Obama needs to find a way to up his game in debates, he does not need to give anyone an excuse to not vote for him, he cannot afford it.

If I were him I would study Bill Clinton in his 1990 debate in the town hall meeting, try to learn, its not a sign of weakness.

do not make excuses for Obama, expect and demand he do better, he cannot afford to be cool when it comes to that hot medium

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"How, how can I listen to talking heads give the thumbs up to McCain?"

There is nothing that Obama can do to change the opinions of the talking-heads. They have decided long ago what the narrative would be, and nothing is going to change that. No matter that Obama is ahead in the polls for months on end and continues to rake in record financial support. No matter that according to Pollster.com, Obama maintains a 284 to 169 electoral vote advantage. No matter what the story about Obama is, the media has decided that it's a somehow a problem for Obama.

Do you really think that if Obama performs brilliantly in the debates that Joe Scarborough or Wolf Blitzer or Pat Buchanan or David Gregory or Mark Halperin or any of the other talking-heads is going to give Obama rave reviews?

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David Gregory even claimed that John Edwards's confession of adultery would be a problem for Obama. He said it a bunch of times, probably hoping it would come true.

I haven't heard his deep thoughts on the fake "cone of silence." Would love to see him spin his way out of that. Especially since McCain was specifically asked about it and lied at the VALUES FORUM!

Though he is a hack, Halperin shows flashes of fairness from time to time. He gave Barack the same grade he gave McCain for the Saddleback Forum: A-

I have been watching a number of the sites who track polls and the EV count, Obama has been tracking down.

It must be noted that no matter how Obama performs in future debates, the MSM will annoint McCain the winner.

Go back to the debate between Kerry and Bush, Kerry's answers were far superior, yet the MSM announced Bush the winner.

That said, I agree Obama needs to have a number of "one liner" hard hitting responses to "put the fear of McCain" into the electorate's mind.

This should not be hard to do, McCain's ignorance and his "cowboy" type foreign policy proposals should scare the hell out of anyone.

I hate to say that Democrats need to take the fear playbook from the Republicans but it is exactly what needs to be done.

"It must be noted that no matter how Obama performs in future debates, the MSM will annoint McCain the winner."

I think this is a realistic assumption.

At minimum, we should plan for the worst. Optimism isn't a strategy.

I think we all, Obama included, need to work harder.

"do not make excuses for Obama, expect and demand he do better, he cannot afford to be cool when it comes to that hot medium"

Be cool huh...hmmmm...anyway!

My fear for Obama before the dem primary began was whether or not he would be strong enough to call something the way it is. Has he met my desire that he do so, ummm no. However, after watching the Clinton campaign be the first (in my opinion) to do things that I expect the republicans do regarding race and the sensitivity behind that, I understand his trepidatious behaivor. Do I like no, I do not! At the same time I disagree that he doesnt deserve a tiny bit of latitude because of the fear the racists, the republicans, and the media have if he is elected President. As Jester said, McCain will always be called the winner by the media. The republicans understand that a sea of change is comming. The racists, well thats self explanitory, and the media know who is going to butter their bread out of the two candidates. So in the end, through some of the disapointment I have with Obama in some debates going all the way back to Hillary asking him to explain his relationship with Farrakhan, while her campaign manager was on video praising farrakhan, and he didn't jump on her for her hypocrisy, I still wont judge him too much. He may not do things the way I want 100% of the time, but he is 100% times better than his opponent! As I have said and will continue to say, the choice is clear, and if the people elect John McCain another republican who voted with that idiot in their now 95% of the time, then we get what we deserve! It's on the people now!

(Idiot in there now!)

Admitted, Obama can come off sort of nowhere when he's off the cuff. Just kind of drifting. And it's upsetting when it happens.

But he can come off really well too, as he did on Meet the Press a few weeks back. And who noticed? The press is framing this narrative and Obama's the younger black version of John Kerry as of now. Warning: don't have a vocaulary in the US of A, if you're a guy keep you legs wide apart while walking or sitting, and wear a codpiece if you can carry it off.

Meanwhile, McCain threatens war with Russia and the press smiles and give him the nod. Go figure.

oh dear poster i understand your concern, but in case you haven't been paying attention, we the supporters have to be the one to praise obama...the odds are stacked against him big time...

he gets press alright and from the beginning of time (back to hillary), it was always more press equaling harsher scrutiny and harsher criticism....

i do concede the point that obama is too much of the intellectual head at times...sometimes a short, curt, under the belt response is better than a long nuanced response...after all, we are not "SMART"...if we were, bush would not have been elected and mccain would not be going toe to toe with the likes of obama....

sighing

Obama is asked to attend a forum in which he will be asked questions of a personal nature relating to character,values and, above all faith. In light of this, how can anyone describe what happened as a "debate" between him and McCain? This is absurd. The point that so many of you are missing is that in such a format the only thing that is important is SUBSTANCE, not style. Obama is being criticized for concentrating too much on substance (thoughtful, deliberate, heartfelt responses) when the venue called precisely for this kind of approach. When Obama finds himself in a debate he will know exactly which strategy to use. Stop trying to turn him into a soundbite-run-of-the-mill political hack. What we like about Obama is that he is unique so let us revel in that.

Obama forgot what he so well knows. His audience was wider than that group. He could have used the occasion to rally his base, not to mollify McCain's. I was especially displeased to hear a Constitutional law professor concede that abortion might be murder if some higher pay grade decided it was. He missed an opportunity to defend Roe.

Billy,

Do you not think there is at least the possibility that life begins at conception? Are you saying you are absolutely sure that it doe not? I'm not sure, and think that's all Obama was owning up to. He was being honest.

And of course, by, "above his pay grade", Obama meant God.

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Billy! Drum roll! I agree with you completely. That answer was not for a general audience. Surely he knew he would get a quesion about abortion and surely he was prepped with a crew of people.

He didn't want to answer it, because you can't be pro-choice if you think a two-celled gamete is equal to a 21 year-old with a past and a future! He should have figured out a way to express himself better than using that "pay scale" comment. If his answer would be "Only god knows" then he would forfeit his right to have an opinion on the subject at all.

That is not the last time a question like this will come up, so he better figure something out that he will have to accept --> anti-abortion people will disagree with him.

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So hold yourself to the same standard. Don't stop at a critique of what he said. Tell us what you think he should've said...

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OK (adapted from another poster at Carpetbagger):

Obama’s dream answer: “There were 40 million abortions before Roe V Wade also. The process continues even if it is made illegal.

What I stand for and what the dem party has written into it’s platform is to make sure that a woman right to choose is legal, the procedure safe but rare. And how do we make it rare… by promoting sex education and access to to birth control to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies, by offering job training and the ability to care for a child as an alternative, by increasing funding to planned parenthood groups to provide counseling alternatives and medical care and help to pregnant women and by promoting adoption alternatives.

Whether legal or not you will not stop women from choosing abortions but we can decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies and thereby decrease the number of abortions performed.”

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Actually, I know that doesn't answer the specific question, which was "When does an unborn baby have human rights?" and is bordering on a talking point, but it still is the kind of answer the question (considering the venue) required.

To answer that the mother's rights matter too, and that as a society we must honor her rights as a person; once the unborn child is a viable individual, its rights to life and liberty come to bear. That is too much for many people to accept, although it is the unspoken truth.

I don't expect Obama to answer as I just did; the post above would have worked, in my opinion. It is certainly as direct as many of MCain's convoluted answers about war, energy and the environment.

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Same challenge to you as to Cville Dem:

Tell us what you would've had Obama say. Not in generalities. Just roll the quotation marks out there and show us what you've got...

The longer this campaign goes on, the more comfortable people seem to be with their armchair advising and push button punditry. I just can't see why the wisdom they're expressing isn't getting them the big ticket to Chicago...

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If it's not clear, this was for Billy...

He could have cribbed from Hillary's answer at the Compassion Forum:

MEACHAM: Senator, do you believe personally that life begins at conception?

CLINTON: I believe that the potential for life begins at conception. I am a Methodist, as you know. My church has struggled with this issue. In fact, you can look at the Methodist Book of Discipline and see the contradiction and the challenge of trying to sort that very profound question out.

But for me, it is also not only about a potential life; it is about the other lives involved. And, therefore, I have concluded, after great, you know, concern and searching my own mind and heart over many years, that our task should be in this pluralistic, diverse life of ours in this nation that individuals must be entrusted to make this profound decision, because the alternative would be such an intrusion of government authority that it would be very difficult to sustain in our kind of open society.

And as some of you've heard me discuss before, I think abortion should remain legal, but it needs to be safe and rare.

And I have spent many years now, as a private citizen, as first lady, and now as senator, trying to make it rare, trying to create the conditions where women had other choices.

I have supported adoption, foster care. I helped to create the campaign against teenage pregnancy, which fulfilled our original goal 10 years ago of reducing teenage pregnancies by about a third. And I think we have to do even more.

Of course this answer would have pissed off the abstinence only crowd and those who believe life absolutely begins at conception, but you need to be able to take a stand on the issues that matter. This waffling only hurts him on both sides since the hard core life begins at conception crowd are going to be drawn to McCain's absolutist view versus Obama's uncertainty.

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Hillary's answer was excellent. There is no answer that will make the rabid right happy except the one McCain gave. If you believe in choice, you therefore believe that abortion should be legal.

That means you have to be a grown-up (as Hillary was in this statement) and say that, yes, it is very difficult, but the rights of women trump those of multi-celled organisms which are not viable humans. Then comes the issue of prevention, which is NOT on the republican radar screen except as a "just say no" issue. Ok, we'd all like for abortions to be rare.

But wishing won't make it so, and neither will ignorance. Abortions have INCREASED during the last 6 years, during the "Abstinance Only" time. Teenage pregnancies have also increased. Well, when you think about it, what has gotten better in the last 6 years, unless you are an oil executive, a Blackwater stooge, or an arms dealer?

Anyway, I guess it is reasonable to say that no answer would have been the right one for the group in Warren's church, but the nation was watching; he could have/should have done better in saying what he believes.

That said, I still think he did better than lizard-brain in every way. BTW -- To whomever it was, thanks for the tip about McCain's botox -- it is fun to watch half of his face crinkle up and the other half stay paralyzed! I missed it before you pointed it out.

I'm thinking that maybe one of the benefits Obama knew would come out of agreeing to appear in this venue is he knew McCain would have to state that he's Pro-Life, something he's been real good at being unclear about. Now that he's said it, he can't unsay it without looking like a bigger dolt than he already does.

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McCain has been consistently pro-life on every vote. I'm not sure what you're talking about. If Obama wanted to make a point about choice, he really blew it with his "pay scale" answer. He should have had something better ready.

Anyone who claims that that fiasco was a "debate" is seriously looney.

Or a Republican right wing nut, which amounts to the same thing.

McCain feed the proper lines to please his far right "base" - the MIDDLE is where he needs votes and they didn't like what McCain had to say.

But calling that a "debate" is ludicrous, even without "Conegate."

How will independents like this new pandering, evangelical-ass-kissing McCain? The more he works the base, the more he loses the center. It's no win.

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...If I were him I would study Bill Clinton in his 1990 debate in the town hall meeting....he cannot afford to be cool when it comes to that hot medium....

Yup, but it's not just TV or debates that are a "hot" medium, an entire presidential campaign is a hot medium.

This is very precisely what I think he is lacking:

He was tireless in his efforts to win a personal connection with as many voters as possible

http://www.kennesaw.edu/pols/3380/pres/1992.html

One can do this on the campaign tours actually talking to individuals and getting coverage of that, or through talking as if directly to individuals through the TV camera, or by reacting empathetically to a single person in a town hall as a stand-in for many others, telling them how you are going to work for them.

So far, what I see is that he is coming off as cool as George H. W. Bush running for re-election, looking at his watch during a debate, figuring that 90% approval rating from the Gulf War was going to stick.

I am suspecting that he does that because he has needed to look presidential (as well as coolness being natural to him.) Well, sorry, people like to see aspiring presidents working like a dog to get votes, and passionately trying to persuade that their policies would be the best answer to problems. Undecideds expect that.

Gore, even though he got a majority, failed to realize this until it was too late. Remember how he changed his campaign messaging at the end to "I want to fight for you!" away from the imperious presidential lecturing Gore?

So far I am seeing too much Dukakis, Adlai Stevenson, Bush I, and the lecturing version of Gore from Obama. Granted, he needed to introduce himself because he was so unknown, but it's way past the time he should to stop talking about himself and showing how smart he is about this or that, and start talking directly to voters in the swing states and make it about them, not him. Granted, looking presidential and courting voters are conflicting goals, but I don't believe he didn't know that was going to happen when he decided to run before he had any name recognition on foreign policy. He's got to appear like he's working like a dog doing it, that he wants to work for the people real bad, so bad that he'll go without rest, I hope that part is coming, I haven't seen it yet.

Somehow he did it in Iowa in an intimate caucus situation. Wish he could start doing again whatever he did in those rooms. Seems to be forgetting that it wasn't his inspirational speechifying that actually got him recognized as someone who could be a contender and not just a celeb with a following, it was winning enough votes in Iowa that did that. His speeches worked to get him a base that contributes money. Now he's got to get passionate about selling policies to undecideds. He needs to put an end on the slogan yes we can--yes we can WHAT?

The cards are stacked for him, and yes he could still win without doing all of this. Kerry's campaign thought so too. I got bad dejas vus seeing photos of Obama playing in ocean surf; I know a break at this time was probably a good idea but those photos going public definitely were not a good idea.

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An example of where he did it right: Berea, Ohio:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/05/the_right_tone/

And the reason is not fully explained in Todd Gitlin's post. Besides passionately talking on policy, he interacted directly with the audience there. He took on the heckler about the Pledge of Allegiance and had the entire audience saying the pledge of allegiance. That's showing the ability to think on your feet and lead and ameliorate a situation. Like it or not, that's how a lot of people decide who to vote for, they watch how the candidate handles other people; those types are not going to believe you can do it well unless you show them one-on-one examples.

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aa.

You are confusing what Obama is actually doing and saying on the stump with which clips and quotes the MSM chooses to highlight.

In addition, the Pastor of the Real Housewives of Orange County warned Obama not to give stump speeches in answering his questions and Obama agreed. Warren didn't hold McCain to the same standards.

If you and others want to argue that Obama should have ignored the admonitions from his host and proceeded to address the audience with proven campaign soundbites, go right ahead.

But, if he had done so, the post-Saddleback media "analysts" would be screeching that Obama broke his "promise" to the honorable manofgod thus proving that he's an empty suit, a clebrity, elitist, uppity, etc.

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And it's not just me:

...said Gov. Ted Strickland of Ohio. “It’s fine to tell people about hope and change, but you have to have plenty of concrete, pragmatic ideas that bring hope and change to life.”

Or, in the blunter words of Gov. Phil Bredesen, Democrat of Tennessee: “Instead of giving big speeches at big stadiums, he needs to give straight-up 10-word answers to people at Wal-Mart about how he would improve their lives.”....

from
Seeing Tougher Race, Allies Ask Obama to Make ‘Hope’ Specific, New York Times front page, August 17

except that they are Hillary supporters, so of course they have all sorts of great 'advice' for Obama. Who cares what the spilled milk brigade have to say? Let them fret in silence.

cherry,

I'd put it differently. The problem is that Obama isn't as quick to pander as have been his opponents. That's not to say that he hasn't pandered at times, but that it's not as reflexive for Obama.

Which still leaves the problem of how not to appear a have underperformed in debates. My answer? I think Obama needs to have clearly worked out the IDEALOGICAL underpinnings of his political philosophy. Doing so may run a bit counter to his inherent pragmatism, but having a clearly thought through ideology makes it much easier to snap off principled sounding responses.

That's what McCain did. All of his responses were boilerplate conservative ideology, not a bit of pragmatism was evident. That's much of why his answers sounded like pandering (ideology becomes crosses to pure pandering when the candidate doesn't actually believe that ideology - as I suspect is true for McCain).

There is a time and place for nuance and pragmatism. Debates are not the time nor the place.

Call me an optimist, but I'm glad Saddleback is being viewed poorly for Obama. It helps lower expectations for the first debate, and definitely reminds him and his team that he's got stuff to work on. I don't know that you can totally extrapolate his performance there to a debate situation, though -- I'd like to think that Obama will do his best to rile McCain up. To do so successfully, to the extent that he could put McCain off his game, will definitely require Obama to tighten up his game and get quick and punchy. He's capable of good one-liners; he just needs to stop thinking so hard. America would rather watch a boxing match than a well-reasoned debate, and he should deliver at least a little.

The other plus is, as others have observed, that Obama comes across as non-threatening. His in person 'vibe' and presence tends to greatly counter the "radical outsider" caricature of him.

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I just re-read the title of this blog. I can think of another one:

For the First Time (and by cheating in the cone of silence and focusing on events that are 40 years old) John McCain Doesn't do Too Bad!

Subtitle

-- Yes, McCain didn't mention countries that haven't existed for 20 years; he doesn't mis-name the avenging parties in Iraq; he doesn't put two countries side-by side that aren't; he didn't even call his wife a cu*t.

-- He did rely on events of 40 years ago, because with dementia those are the easiest memories

-- His jokes, for once, weren't insulting or incitements to war

-- Yeah, John nailed it -- as always, graded on a curve!

Personally, I like being underestimated. I think Obama likes it too.

I think Obama wants to keep the 'underdog' theme going, since McCain had it during the Rep primary and the 2000 race.

People root for the underdog, tis human nature.

This isn't a political race, it's a popularity contest - American's don't vote their economic interests, they aren't capable of knowing what that really is.

Check the Gallup results following his performance. The public at large disagrees.

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It's all in the eye of the beholder. I thought Obama was wonderful -- showing his intellect, compassion, and introspection.

I thought McCain was a bore. He gave canned replies and made sure he squeezed in his talking points. How is that "winning" anything? After about the 12th "my friends" from McCain in several minutes, I had to click to another channel.

"great debates of generations past" did not rely on soundbites. McCain lied about his record and others' records in many republican debates (as i would know since i supported another republican candidate), and was caught only once by George Stephanopolous. The whole republican primary debates were not real policy discussions, but just a bunch of chest thumping about Osama bin laden and Iran. Take a second and watch them why dont you? Im not the only one who was concerned about the ABC policy debate between clinton and obama, considering she has never been asked about her associations with black panthers after yale, whereas Obama is asked about his association with someone he did a fundraiser once with... a fundraiser that happened to raise money for a charity for school-children.

I thought a couple of his answers were dreadful. I hated his paygrade answer. There is no paygrade higher than the Presidency. To couch his answer in that term was setting himself up as not up to the job.

And when you're being asked who are the wise people whose counsel you'd seek as President, to reply with your wife and your grandma! All I could see was that SNL spoof with Hillary coaching him through a 3am ad - except with Obama asking the Chief of Staff to hold on while he rings his old grandma in Hawaii.

But even the Vatican doesn't claim to know that precise answer. From the lips of Ratzinger:

"The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature [as to the time of ensoulment], but it constantly affirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion."

It is above the paygrade of any human to determine when life begins if they cannot even concretely define "life" to the satisfaction of all groups.

I do frown at his use of that word paygrade however, it may have given the impression that he was not serious about the issue, though only people who couldnt catch the humor in that statement would have thought so. But many evangelicals are stupid one issue voters, so likely it may have done damage.

A U.S. President has about as much right/duty to legislate morality as does your dentist - I think that was his point.

Since it was a 'faith' forum I think Obama was insinuating that questions about when life begins belong to God and God alone, (hence the chuckle in the audience).

The argument about when life begins is a distraction, I've posted this particular comment before - one need not believe in outlawing abortion to believe that the loss of a pregnancy (at any stage) whether intentional or not is STILL A LOSS OF LIFE.

That being said I think a right to an abortion is a fundamental right that is required to help a woman choose her own destiny - I would do anything in my power to convince a woman NOT to have an abortion (I believe its a moral duty for each one of us to provide options when the gov't falls short). However, I draw the line at outlawing it.

Politics aside, any woman who has had a miscarriage whether at 6 weeks or 6 months feels a loss. It is estimated that a 1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.

I'm an atheist and even I got that one. This is the Christian code-speak the right is so comfortable with.

I think my understanding comes from a Catholic upbringing where 'spilled seed' and/or birth control is considered the loss of the potential for life.

I'm also fervently opposed to the death penalty, I agree with Rick Warren's view that the 'whole life' is sacred.

Of all the 'reasonable' views Rick Warren holds, his disgust and disdain of atheists makes me question his motives. Forcing people to profess a belief in God when they simply don't is asking people to lie - liars are the root of all evil IMHO.

Obama is a phony. That's why he had to ask his buddy the Massachusetts governor to let him borrow his words during a speech.

and that's why McCain plagiarized from solzhenitsyn and Wikipedia right.

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Well, if you consider attempts to honestly answer questions as "underperforming", as opposed to trotting out excerpts from your stump speeches, well, OK. If you consider you're in conversation with your interlocutor, and treating him as a thoughtful adult, as opposed to playing to the Evangelical, narrow-minded audience,
if that's "underperforming", well, OK. So maybe there is a lesson for Obama: always speak in simple, emphatic, statements. Assume you're speaking to a 5 year old child. Hey, no problem. If that's what it takes to win a debate or an election. But to claim otherwise is "underperforming", then you need to admit that that's what it's all about. I think we as a people deserve better. I would say, that Obama does have some room to tighten up his delivery....but I don't want to see a clone of empty-suit John Wayne/Old Testament rhetoric (and who cares about the Evangelicals) anyway?

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Considering the audience, this atheist thought that Obama meant "God" when he gave the above my pay grade answer.


I think you are obviously letting your primary bitterness affect your judgment, he did a great job at the forum, and did everything he needed to do. It was essentially the equivalent to McCain doing a forum in front of the NAACP, and Obama got a great reception considering it was McCain's base. He shined during the forum. He didn't fall short. You just want him to fail.

Seriously, get over the primary, it is over.

the truth is if obama had been spectacular, we would have missed 'cross in the dirt' and the whole prepared for the answers issue.

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