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Question to myself: Why does Obama leave me so cold?
So I said to myself. "Self, why can't you feel more excited by this Obama fellow. He's a brilliant man, who ran a brilliant campaign. If he wins, it'll be a breath of fresh air in America. Right?"
And the self said back. "Well, part of the problem is Hillary. You know, self, that I was and am an avid Hillary supporter to the end -- even though I had no great love for her husband. I keep thinking that Hillary would have made a great president, not just a good one, but a great one. "
And the self replied. "Well, I know you. That's saying a lot. You've believed that only about a couple of other candidates in our lifetime. Teddy Kennedy was the last one, as I recall."
And the self said. "Yeah, remember how we dropped out of graduate school for a year to work on his campaign. How we were so convinced that Carter was going to lose and didn't deserve to win anyway and how we wanted to save the party from itself by unseating our own incumbent president."
And the self recalls fondly. "Yeah but Teddy ran a lousy campaign. We didn't stand a chance, it turned out. And we got Reagan. Wow! "
And the self scolds "See what happens when you give your heart to the wrong guy!"
But the self ignores the self. "Let's get back to Obama. Why does he leave us so cold? That's the question. We're tried and true democrats. We believe in progres. And he surely represents progress. Why do we have such an empty feeling."
"You just can't get over Hillary. Take a closer looks at him. Don't you recognize his oratorical gifts. don't you recognize that he's a thoroughly decent guy, with brains and talent to spare. If he were a member of our department," the self said to me, "I bet you'd find him an amazing colleague. Plus he stands for many of the same things we are passionate about. Add to that he's an African American male, just like you."
"Well that's all true," I said to me, "and every member of our family is astounded that I find so little to cheer in Obama's rise. They are all deeply moved by the man and his message. Why can't we be?"
"Well if you really want me to be honest, I don't know about you self, but I just don't see anything at all in him that makes me passionately want to see him as president."
"That must be the passion of the recently ended campaign that getting in the way. That's just your grief over Hillary's loss talking."
"Well, self. You probably have a point. But that's only part of it. It's Obama himself. I see in him signs of a very large, very self-referential ego. I see a guy who's was just beginning to earn his stripes as a legislature but who has yet to make any deeply significant and difficult issue his own. I see a guy who has paid no dues, who has not been put to any great test, who has not had to make any hard and consequential choices. I see a guy guy who after waltzing into the Senate after an effectively uncontested election spent 18 months in the Senate doing little that was terribly earth shattering, who took the lead on no hard fights, who got no scars in the service of any great national causes. That's the very opposite of Hillary. This guy looks in the mirror and sees a future president of the United States. Of course, they all do. But it's not like he rolls up his sleeves and digs in and learns more and more in order to prepare. "
"Gosh, self. Don't be so hard on the guy. Maybe it was just that he realized that the longer he stayed in the Senate, the harder becoming president would become. After all, Senators have to cast thousands of votes over the years. They have to make choices. Pick their battles, make their compromises. And all that ruins their prospects of ever becoming president. If you really want to become president. Don't linger in the Senate too long."
"Well, you've got a point. But it doesn't change the thinness of his resume or the shallowness of his experience. I know he likes to say it's judgment not experience that matters --as if these are two separate things. But that's an illusion -- and a shallow one at that. The capacity to judge grows and deepens with experience. As one is tested more, as one has to make hard choices and live with their consequences, judgment becomes more profound, more grounded."
"But Obama was against the war. So were we -- at least I was. Weren't you too. I don't remember being divided from you on that score."
"No, we were indeed against the war. Wrote lots of stuff about it at the time. But you know it cost us nothing to be against the war. And it cost Obama nothing to be against it either. Our being against the war doesn't that we have the "judgment" to be president. If that were sufficient, millions and millions of people -- including you know who -- would have the judgment to be president. So that's a non-agrument."
"Are we getting anywhere with this? We're certainly going to cast our vote for Obama, right?"
"Yeah, sure we are. But we're going to have to hold our nose in doing so."
"Relax dude."
"You know what else gets me. His supporters. Can't stand his supporters, even though many dear friends and colleagues support him with a passion."
"What's wrong with his supporters. His supporters come from our crowd. Every member of the department, everybody in the hood.. They all support him. These are our friends. Our family too."
"I know, that's why I keep these thoughts mostly to us. What got me at least during the primaries was the constant self-reference of that crowd. Remember that yuck incantation "We are the change we have been waiting for." What's that supposed to mean. Compare that to "You must become the change you seek." The former is self-congratulatory. The latter is an injunction to begin the amelioration of the world with the amelioration of one's inner self. Want the world to be more just, more peaceful? Then be a peacemaker, be a spreader of justice. The other? What does it direct you to do? Congratulate yourself on being the change. It asks nothing new of you."
"Man you are an anal-analytic sort of dude. How did I get joined up with you?"
"YOu are me."
"Sometimes I wish I wasn't."
"Back to my point. That self-congratulatory, self-referential tone went through so much of Obama's primary campaign. It just left me utterly cold. And then there were his truly yucky morally superior supporters. Utter turn off. One is surrounded by them in life -- the morally superior class who think that anyone who doesn't see the world their way is benighted, morally compromised, and on and on. If you were against Obama you were all matter of bad things. If you were for Hillary, you couldn't be reasonable person. You were a racist, or a defender of the status quo, or .... Couldn't stand them. Made me not want to talk politics with many of those dear friends you were talking about before. And then there was this fairy tale naivety about how Obama was going to somehow magically change the face of American politics -- mostly by the force of his powerful rhetoric and his charismatic personality. He was going to appeal to the American people at large, across party lines, and generational divides, and inspire us all like some sort of new age political messiah. He was going to renew politics. And then when that silly illusion starts to fade, instead of seeing Obama's weaknesses for what they are, they start to cast blame on everybody but their guy. They really expected the whole world to be wowed in the same way that they were. And when millions of even hard core democratic constituencies proved immune to OBama's charms, they were completely unable to take a critical distance from him and utterly failed to perceive his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. They blamed everybody and everything except the man himself.
The self says back. "Okay man, give a break. You are never going to be fully reconciled unless he wins the election and governs in a kick ass way. You know our side is going to hold the both houses of the Congress by even larged majorities. So maybe this time we can get things done. Maybe Hillary can force her healthcare plan on him."
"That would be nice. Don't know where he got that plan of his. Doesn't even try to address the free-rider problem. What kind of solution is that?"
"You really aren't impressed with this guy. Reminds me of how you felt about Bill Clinton at first and his "third way." Seems like he leaves you colder than Michael Dukakis or Jimmy Carter did. And that's saying something, since I know with how little passion you voted for those two guys. Wow. You're strange. Get with the program. I think you are still heartbroken over Hillary. You're still upset that he didn't name her VP aren't you?"
"Well, self I have to cop to that one. But I'm more mystified than upset. I think HIllary would have been a game changing choice as his VP. I think the pair would have kicked McCain's sorry ass. And I think she would have helped deepen his understanding of lots of things -- she might have convinced him, for example, to abandon his half-assed healthcare plan. But here's another place where I think his ego and his adolescent supporters and his enabling staff probably got in his way. Makes me think even less of the man. And I never thought that much of him to begin with. "
"What's the point of all this??" the self asks the self again, "There's no chance that you won't vote for him, is there?"
"None, whatsoever, the self replies."
"Then hold your nose and go vote!"
And the self said back. "Well, part of the problem is Hillary. You know, self, that I was and am an avid Hillary supporter to the end -- even though I had no great love for her husband. I keep thinking that Hillary would have made a great president, not just a good one, but a great one. "
And the self replied. "Well, I know you. That's saying a lot. You've believed that only about a couple of other candidates in our lifetime. Teddy Kennedy was the last one, as I recall."
And the self said. "Yeah, remember how we dropped out of graduate school for a year to work on his campaign. How we were so convinced that Carter was going to lose and didn't deserve to win anyway and how we wanted to save the party from itself by unseating our own incumbent president."
And the self recalls fondly. "Yeah but Teddy ran a lousy campaign. We didn't stand a chance, it turned out. And we got Reagan. Wow! "
And the self scolds "See what happens when you give your heart to the wrong guy!"
But the self ignores the self. "Let's get back to Obama. Why does he leave us so cold? That's the question. We're tried and true democrats. We believe in progres. And he surely represents progress. Why do we have such an empty feeling."
"You just can't get over Hillary. Take a closer looks at him. Don't you recognize his oratorical gifts. don't you recognize that he's a thoroughly decent guy, with brains and talent to spare. If he were a member of our department," the self said to me, "I bet you'd find him an amazing colleague. Plus he stands for many of the same things we are passionate about. Add to that he's an African American male, just like you."
"Well that's all true," I said to me, "and every member of our family is astounded that I find so little to cheer in Obama's rise. They are all deeply moved by the man and his message. Why can't we be?"
"Well if you really want me to be honest, I don't know about you self, but I just don't see anything at all in him that makes me passionately want to see him as president."
"That must be the passion of the recently ended campaign that getting in the way. That's just your grief over Hillary's loss talking."
"Well, self. You probably have a point. But that's only part of it. It's Obama himself. I see in him signs of a very large, very self-referential ego. I see a guy who's was just beginning to earn his stripes as a legislature but who has yet to make any deeply significant and difficult issue his own. I see a guy who has paid no dues, who has not been put to any great test, who has not had to make any hard and consequential choices. I see a guy guy who after waltzing into the Senate after an effectively uncontested election spent 18 months in the Senate doing little that was terribly earth shattering, who took the lead on no hard fights, who got no scars in the service of any great national causes. That's the very opposite of Hillary. This guy looks in the mirror and sees a future president of the United States. Of course, they all do. But it's not like he rolls up his sleeves and digs in and learns more and more in order to prepare. "
"Gosh, self. Don't be so hard on the guy. Maybe it was just that he realized that the longer he stayed in the Senate, the harder becoming president would become. After all, Senators have to cast thousands of votes over the years. They have to make choices. Pick their battles, make their compromises. And all that ruins their prospects of ever becoming president. If you really want to become president. Don't linger in the Senate too long."
"Well, you've got a point. But it doesn't change the thinness of his resume or the shallowness of his experience. I know he likes to say it's judgment not experience that matters --as if these are two separate things. But that's an illusion -- and a shallow one at that. The capacity to judge grows and deepens with experience. As one is tested more, as one has to make hard choices and live with their consequences, judgment becomes more profound, more grounded."
"But Obama was against the war. So were we -- at least I was. Weren't you too. I don't remember being divided from you on that score."
"No, we were indeed against the war. Wrote lots of stuff about it at the time. But you know it cost us nothing to be against the war. And it cost Obama nothing to be against it either. Our being against the war doesn't that we have the "judgment" to be president. If that were sufficient, millions and millions of people -- including you know who -- would have the judgment to be president. So that's a non-agrument."
"Are we getting anywhere with this? We're certainly going to cast our vote for Obama, right?"
"Yeah, sure we are. But we're going to have to hold our nose in doing so."
"Relax dude."
"You know what else gets me. His supporters. Can't stand his supporters, even though many dear friends and colleagues support him with a passion."
"What's wrong with his supporters. His supporters come from our crowd. Every member of the department, everybody in the hood.. They all support him. These are our friends. Our family too."
"I know, that's why I keep these thoughts mostly to us. What got me at least during the primaries was the constant self-reference of that crowd. Remember that yuck incantation "We are the change we have been waiting for." What's that supposed to mean. Compare that to "You must become the change you seek." The former is self-congratulatory. The latter is an injunction to begin the amelioration of the world with the amelioration of one's inner self. Want the world to be more just, more peaceful? Then be a peacemaker, be a spreader of justice. The other? What does it direct you to do? Congratulate yourself on being the change. It asks nothing new of you."
"Man you are an anal-analytic sort of dude. How did I get joined up with you?"
"YOu are me."
"Sometimes I wish I wasn't."
"Back to my point. That self-congratulatory, self-referential tone went through so much of Obama's primary campaign. It just left me utterly cold. And then there were his truly yucky morally superior supporters. Utter turn off. One is surrounded by them in life -- the morally superior class who think that anyone who doesn't see the world their way is benighted, morally compromised, and on and on. If you were against Obama you were all matter of bad things. If you were for Hillary, you couldn't be reasonable person. You were a racist, or a defender of the status quo, or .... Couldn't stand them. Made me not want to talk politics with many of those dear friends you were talking about before. And then there was this fairy tale naivety about how Obama was going to somehow magically change the face of American politics -- mostly by the force of his powerful rhetoric and his charismatic personality. He was going to appeal to the American people at large, across party lines, and generational divides, and inspire us all like some sort of new age political messiah. He was going to renew politics. And then when that silly illusion starts to fade, instead of seeing Obama's weaknesses for what they are, they start to cast blame on everybody but their guy. They really expected the whole world to be wowed in the same way that they were. And when millions of even hard core democratic constituencies proved immune to OBama's charms, they were completely unable to take a critical distance from him and utterly failed to perceive his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. They blamed everybody and everything except the man himself.
The self says back. "Okay man, give a break. You are never going to be fully reconciled unless he wins the election and governs in a kick ass way. You know our side is going to hold the both houses of the Congress by even larged majorities. So maybe this time we can get things done. Maybe Hillary can force her healthcare plan on him."
"That would be nice. Don't know where he got that plan of his. Doesn't even try to address the free-rider problem. What kind of solution is that?"
"You really aren't impressed with this guy. Reminds me of how you felt about Bill Clinton at first and his "third way." Seems like he leaves you colder than Michael Dukakis or Jimmy Carter did. And that's saying something, since I know with how little passion you voted for those two guys. Wow. You're strange. Get with the program. I think you are still heartbroken over Hillary. You're still upset that he didn't name her VP aren't you?"
"Well, self I have to cop to that one. But I'm more mystified than upset. I think HIllary would have been a game changing choice as his VP. I think the pair would have kicked McCain's sorry ass. And I think she would have helped deepen his understanding of lots of things -- she might have convinced him, for example, to abandon his half-assed healthcare plan. But here's another place where I think his ego and his adolescent supporters and his enabling staff probably got in his way. Makes me think even less of the man. And I never thought that much of him to begin with. "
"What's the point of all this??" the self asks the self again, "There's no chance that you won't vote for him, is there?"
"None, whatsoever, the self replies."
"Then hold your nose and go vote!"
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So, do you find McCain anywhere near as troubling? And if not, why not?
August 27, 2008 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain doesn't even get to first base with me. He's in a different universe.
August 27, 2008 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then I'm not sure what your essay is for, other than to congratulate yourself for being too cool for school. I wish it were possible to know for sure that the people we support will be as wise and courageous and we need them to be, but we can't know that in advance. So we go with our guts. I guess you're saying that your gut doesn't feel anything in response to Obama. That's fair. But not exactly helpful.
August 27, 2008 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
The other? What does it direct you to do? Congratulate yourself on being the change. It asks nothing new of you."
FWIW it wouldn't have occurred to me to interpret "we are the change we have been waiting for" this way at all. I heard it as a way of turning the focus from Obama as the agent of change, to all of us together as the agents of change.
It makes no sense (to me) the way you read it, because it would imply that the change has already happened (here we are!) and that's certainly not the intended meaning.
August 27, 2008 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that the way I interpret "We are the change..." makes sort of nonsense of it. But not exactly. It does shift the reference from Obama to his supporters. But what it does is declare those supporters "the vanguard of change" or something like that. By what right do they get to count as the vanguard? Because they voted for Obama -- so it does go back to Obama.
It's a little like calling oneself and one's fellow travelers the second coming.
August 27, 2008 9:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is the sentence before "we Are the change we have been waiting for." If you don't know then you really need to shut your neurotic yob.
You can't wait for change to happen; you have to make it.
You are the classic passive aggressive. What are you waiting for? I think you should repeat this for your therapist and leave us alone.
August 27, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you Economides, are an I don't know what. So there!
But that sort of thing is typical of the kind of Obama supporter that I just can't stand to talk politics with anymore -- even though that includes many of my really good friends, who have been fellow travelers on many occasions.
August 27, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
So i take it you don't know the context of the line as delivered do you?
Like I said, a therapist can really be helpful at time like this.
The rest of us, me and Bill and Hillary, are moving on.
What department are you in?
August 28, 2008 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, I can't believe I read this thing... talk about an egotistical advnture. What are you looking for from the rest of the 'selves' reading this internal dialogue???
A couple of comments.
Considering the millions of people supporting Senator Obama it is impossible for us to all be the same.
The first time I saw Senator Obama speak was on Cspan. He was already a US Senator. I am an activist, 44, yr old, white woman. I focus on the senate. I have studied typologies for years as it helps offer insights into our natural differences. When I heard him speak that day, I listened to him, I immediately recognized him as a man of rare and incredible character and wisdom. I thought 'I wish this man was our president' that just arose in me naturally. I went to my computer and emailed him at his senate address and asked him to run. I know he was asked by many, many people to run. I think he is running for president because he is a leader. Because he realizes that he does have gifts that can help restore our country and he wants to do that for the sake of the future of his girls, his family, and all of us. I don't see him as a man who seeks power for power's sake unlike the current criminal adminstration.
Good luck on your working this out with you...
August 27, 2008 8:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure what makes him count as a leader. Again what fights has he taken the lead in and won? What causes has he dug deeper into than anyone.
The dialogue with the self was just a rhetorical device.
August 27, 2008 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good instincts. Insufficient research -- shortest capsule --http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html
Vote McCain.
August 27, 2008 8:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think people take a visceral like/dislike to other people within a fraction of a second (can't remember the link, but there was a scientific study). It is often based on subtle cues and subconscious prejudices (of all kinds). Hidden fears, based on our past experiences and knowledge base. If you find Hillary more likable and inspiring than Barak, than that says as much about you as it says about them.
Think about it.
August 27, 2008 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The pertinent piece of information is that he likes Hillary but not Bill.
August 27, 2008 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Rational Causes:
I don't viscerally dislike Obama at all. I am just underwhelmed by him as a presidential candidate and potential president. I think he'd be a neat guy to know and to have as an academic colleague. I admire his intellect and his rhetorical skills. But I don't think he's quite ripe for the presidency yet. I think he has a long way to go before he's ripe enough. That doesn't amount to dislike at all.
August 27, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure where this idea of "ripeness" comes from-- well, actually, I am, it comes from Sen. Clinton and her campaign staff.
While it's true that Sen. Obama lacked the years as governor of Arkansas, he came up through the Chicago political system, and to be blunt, had more elected years of office than Sen. Clinton.
Regardless, there's only one way you can genuinely say you're qualified to be President: You have to have been President already.
There's no other job like it. It's somewhat like being in the path of a Category 5 hurricane-- You can't prepare for it, you can't really understand what it's like ahead of time, you just have to hold on, and hope you survive.
Good presidents learn fast, have smart advisors who will argue with them, and know what battles they can win, and what battles are out of reach. Sen. Obama has displayed those characteristics time and time again.
I don't know that Sen. Obama will be the greatest President of the last 50 years, or the next 100. I don't know if he'll live up to the reputation of his predecessor from Illinois or not. I suspect he'll easily be the best president (so far) of the 21st century-- Then again, my cat compares favorably to the current administration. It's a bit of a gamble-- except that John McCain scares me badly enough I'd consider writing in "George W. Bush" instead of voting for John McCain.
Perhaps a brief jaunt back through time might help... this is an article I forwarded around when I was first learning about this new junior senator who was considering running for President:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/17/AR2007011701343.html
It has both positives, and negatives, but it intrigued me enough that I've been a supporter since then. Other articles I read at the time suggest he's unusual for a politician: He believes in solving root causes, rather than treating symptoms. He's a community organizer, and rather than running as a normal politician, he's running his campaign as the single biggest community organization event in this country since 1776.
If Senators Biden, Clinton and Obama can't get you fired up about Sen. Obama, I don't know what will... but those of us who really DO want to see Sen. Obama given the opportunity to show what he can do, would appreciate your support November 4th.
August 28, 2008 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Jeg:
I always vote. I donate lots of money to democrats. I've worked in mayoral campaigns, presidential campaigns, senatorial campaigns. I have lots of politically connected friends. I am a certified political junkie -- hard core. Like I said to myself in my dialogue, there is no chance I won't vote for Obama. And I hope he wins. But I can't pretend to be excited by him per se. He leaves me almost as cold as Dukakis did. And I really did drop out of grad school for a year to try to help defeat Jimmy Carter. I still voted for him in the end. So it goes without saying that I will vote for Obama. But I bet I'm not the only Hilary supporter who vote with a broken heart. It's not the usual lesser of two evils thing this time.
August 28, 2008 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Thinkingman. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has actual dialog with my own self! This was an amusing read, but it's way longer than any self-to-self dialog I would have the patience to transcribe. :-) Thanks for sharing your experience.
I'm an enthusiastic Obama supporter (though not one of the super-emotional, star-struck ones I've seen and which you refer to). I have the feeling you have that emotional enthusiasm for Senator Clinton, so your disappointment now might be an especially emotional one (hope I'm not being too presumptuous).
Regarding personal dislike, I think I can understand what you're talking about. I can't explain why we (humans) sometimes have a visceral reaction to either like or dislike certain people; and being a rational person, it's difficult for me to admit that I'm not always in control of my responses to other people. But that was my experience with Bill Clinton (not Hillary). On a personal level, I've just never liked him. But I voted for him -- happily -- because I knew he'd do a good job at being president. I knew he was brilliant and hoped he would be politically astute, and I figured he would lead in a manner more in line with my values than the Republican candidate.
So, needless to say, I didn't share the emotional enthusiasm his admirers felt for his candidacy.
Anyway. I voted for Bill Clinton and never regretted it, but I didn't have to pay any emotional cost to do it. When I try to imagine how I'd feel about voting for Bill Clinton following a big let-down (like the one you might have had), I might find myself feeling pretty apathetic.
I don't think anyone could have said anything to "make" me like Bill Clinton, so I won't say anything to try to "make" you like Barack Obama.
Would it get you fired up if we talk about how a Democratic President -- along with a ton of "flipped" House and Senate seats, and a ton of "flipped" state houses -- might make the Republicans sh*t their pants? I mean, if we can't get you fired up with some of that Obama-style starry-eyed enthusiasm, how 'bout some good ol' spite-inspired schadenfreude??
Scarin' the hell out of some smug, entitled Republican politicians could be mighty satisfying, hmmm?
;-)
August 28, 2008 12:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Laura Jordan:
Thanks for your understanding and generosity. Well, yes having a unified democratic government again would be great. I'm greatly looking forward to that prospect.
The worrier in me, though, does have a rising fear that the certainty that there will be an even more dominant democratic majority in both the House and the Senate will give many people who aren't quite sure about Obama cover to vote for McCain. You know some Americans -- especially the non-ideological, sit on the sideline, middle of the roader types who just want to make sure that government doesn't do anything CRAZY -- love divided government. They might think that a President McCain with a strong democratic House and Senate to deal with might not be such a bad deal. THe one would moderate the leftist tendencies of the other. And the other would moderate the rightist tendencies of the one.
The only time I ever gave in to that kind of thinking I personally made the one vote for a democrat I still regret to this day. That creepy Joe Lieberman was running against Lowell Weicker. And I voted for Leiberman causes I wanted to do my bit for the party and wanted to do what I could to make sure Bush the First didn't have a Republican Senate to work with.
This despite the fact that I greatly admired much about Weicker.
August 28, 2008 1:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
If Obama leaves you cold, maybe you haven't been listening very well. He warms my heart and sooths my mind and I've been digging into everything I could find that he said or did for over a year now. Now McCain gives me lots chills up my back. On the war and on the economy I really think that he could lead America to the very brink and maybe even fall over. All the other super powers in the world's history fell apart. We shouldn't think that it could never happen to us. The national debt is moving into having a life of it's own and it isn't a benevolent life. It's a monster without feeling that doesn't care who or what it destroys. We need Obama and we need to avoid any more Bush policies with McCain. Do you really doubt that?
August 28, 2008 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
You and I just see Obama differently. I think I have been listening with a very acute ear. But look despite the fact that he leaves me as cold as a stone in winter, I'll vote for him. I'll just hold my nose doing so. So no, I don't doubt that we need to sweep the Republicans and their policies out of power. Not at all.
August 28, 2008 1:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Then why can't you just hold your nose and QUIETLY do it? Why do feel the need to assist in demoralizing those of us who have a passion for getting him elected? Are you looking for someone to say something that will ignite you? If you are, just read...There are plenty of posts that talk about his superior qualifications.
I don't understand why it is so hard to understand that people pay attention to this site...please don't give them any more reasons than they already have for wondering why they would want to vote for Obama.
The decision to go with Obama has been made. Quit sniveling about not being excited and be happy that you have a choice other than McCain.
August 28, 2008 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Compared to some (apparently), I find your dialog fascinating -- and very worthwhile. And I suspect there are a lot of people right where you are. I know my secretary is (and, pssst, she's a life-long Republican but interested enough to keep looking). (Also for the record, the selection of Joe Biden went a LONG way toward perking her interest - the warmth, his long history and resilience, his family.)
Anyway, I'm a big-time Obama supporter but I can see what you are saying. In fact, I was a little irritated that he ran this time -- "too early - pushy" That would have really turned me off even more .... except that I'm from New York and **still** ticked that Mario Cuomo never found "just the right time" So, I gave him slack on that (still didn't like it).
(Since then, for the record, I've decided in my own mind that a big part of the timing of the decision may have to do with the age of his daughters. I honestly don't believe that he or Michelle would put them through this if they were older, teenagers. And I can't blame them. It would be brutal for any child old enough to take in the hate, the ugliness, the loss of family life and all. Even harder for children who also have to cope with the realization that some people will hate them just because of their race. Parenthood is a very, very important thing to both Barak and Michelle, for reasons I think she explained pretty well.)
One reason I see him very, very differently from you (and self, for that matter) may be because I'm older and remember what happened when JFK and RFK and MLK 'hit' the world and brought about that mind-spinning change from the 50's and segregation and Eisenhower. (There's been nothing like THAT change since then. Nothing.) I guess some people just ARE bigger-than-normal and/or some times are going to require that leaders grow bigger because the need is so great. They may not be comfortable always, or predictable, or familiar, but they are true agents of change. I've always wondered if it's a gift or a curse.
Anyway, I've seen this before, so it isn't quite so strange. And with each of those people, by the way, the basic message was "we are the change we've been waiting for" Seriously. They each reminded Americans that it's the people who, bottom line, run things and who have the power to change things if they don't like what is happening. They aren't change - they are truly *agents* of change. It's the people who bring about the changes.
The clearest example of that is a 20-something Martin Luther King, fairly new preacher of a small church, leading a protest that had utterly powerless people (housemaids, laborers) *walking* miles to get to work - for over a year!! It was a change they wanted, only their concerted effort could bring about, and it truly changed the very nature of this country. But, for all that the power was literally with the people, it wouldn't have happened without a charismatic leader who appeared - or was pushed - on stage at the right moment. Right now is one of those times of tremendous need -- the climate, if for no other reason (and there are lots of other reasons also).
And -- perhaps more importantly -- I am very enthusiastic about and comfortable with Obama because before all of this started, before he announced he was running, I'd read "Dreams From My Father" -- I genuinely like and can respect and feel comfortable with the person I met in that book (and it is very much *his* book). Oddly, I don't feel that he is someone, actually, who PLANS what is going to happen next. No one would agree with me, probably, but I don't think he was planning to run for President when he went to the Senate. I don't think he was expecting to win the nomination when he announced (and if you saw the tape of him talking to his Chicago staff after they clinched, you can see that he's a little stunned ... and a little scared.)
My impression is that he follows gut instinct for lack of a better term more than anyone would expect -- and when he was being pressured to run, he had no good reason not to, a good reason (his childrens' age) to do it now, and, well, thought that maybe that was what was supposed to come next. (This week his sister Maya talked about a moment like that when he made the decision to run for the Senate.)
The book shows him to be very introspective and very instinctive .... and although it isn't "experience" in the ways you are talking about, he's had an experience that is so unique and I suspect so difficult that I believe it's one of those things that make or break a person. --- People lose sight of the fact that Barak Obama grew up as a white person, at least in his mind. His only family was white, and he was in Hawaii or Indonesia where race is a much more fluid and less important matter. As he got older and later went to school on the mainland, of course, it became an issue and there was no one, no family member who could really help him. Touching picture from the book of his grandfather going to visit a black friend and taking Barry along, leaving them alone sometime, so that maybe the friend could help his grandson learn some of the things that the grandfather really had no idea how to even think about and certainly no experience in dealing with.
Anyway, I actually see the person up there on the stage speaking so grandly a bit as you do -- eloquent, says stunning stuff, but who is he? It's one glimpse at one side of a complex person, and you DO wonder what the rest is like - he could be anyone. Supposedly Hitler was a grand speaker also ... but then so were the very non-evil men I mentioned above.
So, if you're really interested in knowing whether you should have to hold your nose or not, to get a feel for what the *rest* of him might be, I'd suggest reading his books (esp that first one, written a long time ago, when he was getting out of law school). Forget the person you have seen and just watch the boy grow up. -- Also pay attention to what others say about him. People who are friends or associates in Chicago tell very interesting things about the way he works, makes decisions, finds out about things -- Other Senators who came out to support of him in surprising numbers, not just the fact of their endorsement but the words they use. -- Staff and volunteers, including Caroline Kennedy who has very interesting things to say about the process of working with him on the VP selection. (She won't talk about the process but she has talked about her somewhat surprised impression of what he's like really working and not 'on camera.')
And I guess there's one last factor. I'm a proceduralist - I think you can tell most about *who* someone is by looking at *how* they do things. And I've been absolutely blown away by how his campaign has been run!
Even if that didn't tell me this is someone I'd probably like or at least respect, frankly we NEED that sort of competence SO badly, I'd enthusiastically vote for him if he had two heads and the personality (tho not the ethics or policies) of Dick Cheyney.
Hope some of that helps (you, too, 'self').
August 28, 2008 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your comment was excellent...I am so glad to have your patient voice of reason here...I'm afraid I'm getting tired of the whining and am forgetting some people need more hand holding than others. I'll try to follow your example!
August 28, 2008 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Elizabeth2;
Much to chew on there. Really thoughtful. Its late though and I'm pretty pooped. So I won't respond at length. But I wanted to thank you for your thoughtful response.
Just a quick word. I did read Dreams of my Father and was quite moved by it. I do think Obama is in many ways a remarkable human being. Somebody said I have a visceral dislike for him. That's not it at all. Actually I remember thinking after I read that book that it was clearly written before he decided or even contemplated seeking the presidency. It's such an honest book. Planners don't write books that honest.
Anyway, such thoughtful replies as yours and a few others too to my attempt to work out my complex stew of thoughts and feelings about Obama are much appreciated.
August 28, 2008 2:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the spectacle of the Pres. election makes us fetishize the idea of a "Great Leader" more than we need to.
I don't insist that our candidate be anything more than a decent man with good ideas and sound judgment, accompanied by above-average managerial skills and superb communication skills.
He's got to win the election, and then appoint the right people. But he's not going to do a whole lot by his lonesome. So I don't need to believe that he's as wise as Jehovah, or that he has a long history of saving tiny villages from floods. I just need to believe in our Party -- in its policy ideas and the depth of talent on its bench.
August 28, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm somewhat concerned about his lack of experience, but Clinton didn't have any relevant experience either. (No, I do not consider being governor of Arksansas relevant experience).
But I'm more concerned with his lack of passion on any significant issue. I think we wound up with the best ticket but I think we might have it upside down.
August 28, 2008 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
You got issues that go beyond democratic ideals and you should blame Hilary for dragging you through this brainwashing experience called the primaries. You believed too much in her character and her abilities and forgot that she's a politician,...they play with your emotions and tell you what you want to hear. You become blind to your own candidate's fault's and weaknesses and concentrate only on your opponents. Shake it off,...in essence these 2 candidates aren't that different in their views. Truthfully,...neither candidates have proven that they can follow with action, yet. In my opinion Hillary had baggage(Billy, Iraq, Centrist, Dynasty) and used Republican tactics when she lost 11 states in a row(caucus's are unfair, Bosnia, MI, FL, 1st lady experience, 3am, farakan, wright, canada). She became divisive within her own party. If she would've been ahead,...the whole story of Michigan and Florida, etc wouldn't have been they way she told it(I'm guessing). I think Obama's greatest appeal is his level of honesty and his positivity in today's politics where everything is spun to fit your message. Also, I didn't hear 1 thing in all your postings why Hilary inspired you in the first place....besides universal healthcare...which I think most Obama supporters would support, too. Anyways,....good luck with all that. We all need to move on and focus on beating McCain by directing our energy on the issues that we wanted to begin with.
August 28, 2008 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I look at Barrack Obama, I see everything I want in a president.
I see a brilliant man who understands complex problems - but more than that, I see a man who has more cool under pressure than I have ever seen before. That is an outstanding quality in a president. And on top of all that, even I see a man who - o the miracle of it! LISTENS. He really listens to people.
I ultimately see a man who understands America in a very profound way.
I feel sorry for you that you can't or won't let yourself see these things.
August 28, 2008 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thinkingman, the reason Obama leaves you cold is because you have lost your objectivity. That is all it is.
My recommendation would be to take the passion you have, extricate it from the single person you have affixed it to, and direct it towards the policies the person put forth.
You can then look for all the similarities in policies and work towards correcting any that you find faulty.
August 28, 2008 7:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah! Good advice, and succinct too!
Good job, roo P.
August 28, 2008 7:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thinkingman --
Does this leave your selves cold?
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech
August 28, 2008 7:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually Jaymay:
This was the best I've seen Obama. I thought the speech was terrific. Me and self are going to have to digest this one. Gone were most traces of many of the things in his self-presentation that have given me pause. So no, his acceptance speech didn't leave me cold. It's the second time he's deeply moved me. The first time was his speech about race.
August 29, 2008 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink