Stop Helping the Republicans
I keep seeing several of you in the comments of several threads attempting to quell all of this he-said / she-said garbage that seems to be exploding over the last few days all over these boards, all over other boards, and all over the media. This post is not directed at you -- it's directed at the many supporters on both sides who are allowing themselves to do the bidding of the GOP.
I hate to have to point this out, but if you haven't already figured it out, the Republicans are DESPERATELY trying to push the narrative of disarray in the Democratic party and MANY OF YOU ARE HELPING. They've got every operative on every show today pushing the idea that they've got thousands and thousands of Democrats that are now going to vote for McCain, that Clinton was snubbed (oh, now they RESPECT Hillary?), that our party is in disarray, etc. They're even buying ad space to enforce the message. It's their strategy to torpedo our convention by dividing us.
So, I'm appealing to you all of you not to "come together" but to stop and think for a moment about whether or not you're doing exactly what the GOP wants you to do. And if so, is that what you want?
Or.......do you want to direct your fire and your fury at the party that's legalized torture, ruined our standing in the world, given ridiculous tax cuts to the most well-off among us, mismanaged our economy to the brink of ruin, gotten thousands of soldiers unnecessary killed to follow the whims of a few well-connected assholes who are now making millions off the chaos, attempted to destroy the concept of equal justice under the law by politicizng the U.S. Attorney's office, and oh yeah, KARL ROVE.
These are the people we need to fight -- not each other. So let's do it.
And then, of course, there's the fact that what is said here and on other discussion forums is really irrelevant to the outcome of the election in Nov.
August 25, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know, I know. It's totally inside baseball. But I think the attempted Republican narrative is working on Democrats and I'm just frustrated to see the lack of discipline out there.
August 25, 2008 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree. I think that is similar to saying that our vote doesn't count in November because there's virtually no chance that it will come down to one vote.
It is about doing what you can where you can, and if everyone takes up their responsibility, then something actually can get done.
August 26, 2008 12:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
gdubs, the hatred sowed by Josh Marshall, Keith Olbermann, Gene Robinson and others in the progressive media has become integral part of Obama supporters' souls.
It may be too late now. Blaming Hillary of racism or lashing against Bill Clinton over inoffensive comments did nothing to help the party, and it's showing.
August 25, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are indeed a dip shit, and obviously not interested in seeking the truth.
August 25, 2008 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Truth is the last thing this guy has ANY interest in.
August 25, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Completely in agreement with you here.
August 26, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
God, pull your head out, will you?
August 26, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since I'm going to sit here and hang out in my own thread while I'm watching the coverage, anyone watching MSNBC? Olbermann just blurted out "get a shovel" during Scarborough's analysis and I don't think he realized his mic was on. It was absolutely hilarious and awkward for a few minutes. Scarborough was pushing the whole "Obama's lead has collapsed" meme.
August 25, 2008 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another post that took this on much better than I did:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/join-or-die.php
August 25, 2008 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know, you also are doing a good job.
When I walked to my office this morning, I saw the following headline on the Monday Morning edition of our local paper of record, The Oregonian.
RATTLED DEMOCRATS TARGET MCCAIN
This is a great headline if you are a Republican and it confirms what you are talking about.
Imagine the difference that would have been the case if counterfactually, the headline had read:
CONFIDENT DEMOCRATS CRITICIZE MCCAIN
But the Oregonian, a moderate-Republican paper chose the first. And what an impact. The reader doesn't even have to read the attached article. The headline conveys a wealth of information: Democrats are weak, are without answers, are panicked, are lacking self-confidence, are vindictive.. Just what we don't want for leadership of the country!
Lots of bang for the buck on a 4 word banner.
August 25, 2008 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep. I'm pessimistic we're going to win the media narrative more times than we'll lose it, but at least we can stop swallowing it whole ourselves.
August 25, 2008 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're absolutely right, Lux. Many people fail to realize how many out there are just "headline readers" -- they see the headline, draw a conclusion and fail to get the context by reading all of or any of the article. They then walk away with a perception based solely on the headline. Don't believe me on that one if you don't want to, but I've met plenty of them myself.
August 26, 2008 12:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
But nothing said on-line could possibly make it into the corporate media. We are a bunch of political junkies with no voices or effect beyond what we see here. At least, that is the narrative of those who claim a little disorder and chaos and vitriolic rhetoric never hurt anything.
August 26, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's a false pretense. Blogs, especially ones like TPM, are getting more interest from MSM sources. Maybe they're not cited, but more and more we see stories about what's going on in the political blogosphere. And whether some would like to admit it or not, the division that's taken place does not go unnoticed.
August 26, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
No argument. I have been one of them in the past!
August 26, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have been from time to time. I try to avoid it, though. ;D
August 26, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most excellent points, gdubs. Rec'd!
August 25, 2008 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, gdubs. Except when there are real issues at stake, I worry a lot more about discussing the issues than I do about how the Republicans are going to attack us because, let's face it, the Republicans are going to attack us no matter what we say.
So, back to the issues. Progressives really need to lean on Obama hard right now because we're being left off the agenda big time. It simply won't do for us to stay quiet.
I think the Biden pick was a travesty. I really do. But heck, maybe if progressives weren't so noisy about Obama's previous FISA tragedy, even organizing protests on his own Web site, he'd have picked an even worse running mate like Evan Bayh.
At some point Obama has to be made to understand that he has the support of liberal voters but not our unconditional support. If we're quiet on FISA, quiet on the veep pick, quiet on faith based initiatives, quiet on everything, it just sends the wrong message.
August 25, 2008 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
We shouldn't be intolerant of criticism, for sure. Voicing real concerns about the issues is a good thing, and shouldn't be discouraged.
Destor, I think part of what's going on is attributable to plain anxiety. A lot of people are so afraid of another Republican administration, they're becoming the intolerant, obedient lock-steppers they normally ridicule.
It sounds crazy, I know, but I kind of sympathize.
August 26, 2008 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
I sympathize too. Heck, I'm part of it. I'm worried that Obama is making the wrong choices and that things are closer than they should be as a result. That's the thing, gdubs thinks some of us are helping Republicans. But from our point of view we're trying to help Obama if he'd only listen to us...
Finally, Obama is just a means to an end and the ends are policies. If we get Obama but not progressive policies, we haven't won much.
As well, we'll see.
August 26, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Though, I gotta add, we still would have won something. He'd still slow down the radicalization of the supreme court.
August 26, 2008 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not gdubs, so I shouldn't speak for him. So I'll say this: what I take from the post is that substantive, respectful, adult conversations about real policy concerns are constructive and shouldn't be discouraged. That's what you do and call for, Destor, and I appreciate that. But the disrespectful, careless insult-trading going on here is stupid and destructive. Folks who are still stubbornly clinging to resentments formed during the primaries (on both sides) need to honestly examine their thinking, try to employ some empathy for the other, and work through it. And make it snappy!
Agreed. We have to stay engaged, and to the extent we're able, work to affect policy making to reflect our values.
My opinion is that the only way to achieve this is to bring transparency to as much government and political activity as we can. Obama has spoken to this and I think it's at least a start. I just have to figure out how to monitor the progress on this and hold his feet to the fire, if necessary.
August 26, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, speak for me here -- you're doing just fine. Destor and I knocked it out down-thread o the same discussion.
August 26, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who would you have liked to see in the VP spot (other than Clinton)?
August 26, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Feingold or Richardson would have been better.
August 26, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Feingold, I'd understand, but Richardson seems about the same to me as Biden if we're talking about progressive causes?
Listen, I understand your overall point -- you want to put the pressure on Obama to focus on progressive causes. I understand the frustration with FISA, I really do. I don't want to see Obama "move to the center" and lose teeth as a progressive candidate any more than he has (and the amount that he has done that is, of course, debatable, and we probably wouldn't agree completely).
So, I'm not saying any criticism of Obama is bad -- I just think we're in a critical time right now where we're trying to frame our candidate for the larger populace and the low-information voters, and if the story comes out of Denver that the Democrats are in disarray, which is what the Republicans are DESPERATELY trying to establish as the media narrative, then it'll be a far closer election than it needs to be. And at the end of the day, isn't there too much at stake even if you want Obama to be more progressive? Doesn't having a "mildly progressive" President and congress open the door to establishing a truly viable left? I mean, we tried the alternatives for the last 8 years and I don't think we've gotten anywhere. There's so much to undo at this point, I just don't see how we can even give the Republicans a chance.
August 26, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, mildly progressive is an accomplishment. so I'm going to vote for him. But I'm also going to try as best I can to push him towards the left mostly because it's the right thing to do and also because I think it will help him win. I think we actually lose votes by tacking to the right.
August 26, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well then, I'm pretty sure Ric Flair and the Greatest American Hero are on the same (tag) team.
August 26, 2008 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I kinda suspected that all along.
Whoooooooo!
August 26, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to agree here. I don't think we should necessarily fear the Republicans, though. We should recognize their strengths and take those strengths away from them.
August 26, 2008 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
One of their strengths is encouraging our own ranks to attack our candidate rather than theirs. I wish special interests would start looking out for the common interest once in a while. God knows the Dems have been more inclusive and diverse than the GOP ever will be. But no, we have to hear the only viable candidate bashed from within. Oh joy.
August 26, 2008 1:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's exactly what I mean. You hit the nail on the head. The problem we face is the inclusiveness of the Democratic party. Well, it's a problem when it's exploited. Which is is on a regular basis by the Republicans. It makes uniting together that much more challenging, but I don't see how it's not a challenge we can't face, and overcome.
As I discussed on one of my latest posts, morale plays a huge part in uniting together. If the image is truly one of divisiveness within the party, then morale is lowered. We saw this with the Republicans for a long time. They figured out how to get past it, and then turn the sentiment against us. Why is it so hard for us to overcome it?
August 26, 2008 1:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
oh please, you reap what you show...hrc was divisive and not a teamplayer...how is it there is not one footage of the obama's trashing the clintons? you know why? b/c they exercised judgement and they knew that in the end, we are all on the same team....stop making excuses for HRC's inexcusable behavior...the most we can hope for is a forceful, energetic counter attack from HRC..i doubt we will see it...
August 26, 2008 8:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am and have been an Obama supporter. "You reap what you sow" -- what is the point of rehashing all of this shit? It strategically makes NO SENSE. I'm not asking anyone to make excuses -- I'm asking all of us to move on and focus on the real target here. No one's won a thing at this point.
And by the way, she did this yesterday:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/25/clinton_dismisses_mccain_ads.html
It's a nice preview of things to come this week, hopefully.
August 26, 2008 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
how is it there is not one footage of the obama's trashing the clintons?
----------------------------------------------------
There's plenty of footage. Obama supporters will never acknowledge any of it or go to unbelievable lengths to spin it away. All the while going to those same lengths to parse every word out of Bill or Hillary's mouth to spin them as demons.
August 26, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You say "there's plenty of footage", but don't cite a single source. How brilliant you are, as usual.
August 26, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
In the spirit of the post, let's stop talking about it. The argument gets us nowhere. I don't mean this to be condescending -- I was tempted to respond about 8 times myself.
August 26, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. My tone could have been less aggressive.
August 26, 2008 6:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7ndAA
August 26, 2008 6:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's little that any individual blogger could do to help the Republicans more than the questionable results of the Democratic Primary. I think Rasmussen should run a poll on how many people who have ALWAYS VOTED DEMOCRAT will be VOTING REPUBLICAN FOR THE FIRST TIME. The reform of the Democratic Party will begin with the November results.
Democracy is not "party discipline". It's each individual sincerely expressing her voice.
August 26, 2008 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think we should necessarily fear the Republicans...
...but we should deny them our essence.
August 26, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I genuinely don't know what you mean by this?
August 26, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent points. (Why is TPM displaying on this page a McCain banner smearing Obama about meeting unconditionally with anti-American foreign leaders? I don't mind seeing a plain old-- er, young-- McCain logo, like the spiffy Obama ones, but do we have to be Swiftboated even on a progressive Website?)
August 26, 2008 6:58 PM | Reply | Permalink