Thanks for all the fish
It's undoubtedly an issue in my own personality. No one else seems to mind, but it's driving me nuts and although I AM masochistic, I'm not willing to take my neurosis to the fatal limit. I'm signing off here out of irritation and boredom. However, I so enjoy bloviating, I'm going to bore you with my reasons why.
Read it or don't. Couldn't care less.
Comment or don't. Couldn't care less.
Like it or don't. Couldn't care less.
Adjust your behavior or don't. I really couldn't care less.
The reader blogs at TPM Cafe used to be about politics. I really looked forward to this election season for interesting debates on the urgent imperatives facing the United States. We used to do that sort of thing here in the Cafe. In the words of Inspector Clouseau "Not any mehr." The closest we get to interesting on the reader blogs these days is petty, inter-personal, internecine bickering. And for the most part, the bickering is not even about policy issues. Not even about character, really -- it's about pique. It's about malignant spite. It's about:
-- Whether Sen. Obama is a misogynist and dissed Sen. Clinton in the primaries, or
-- Whether Sen. Clinton is a racist and endorsed Sen. McCain, or
-- Whether Sen. McCain is running a dirty campaign, or
-- Whether Pres. Clinton is carrying a grudge and still wants more attention than he deserves.
-- Whether some politician's verbal misstatement -- like Sen. Obama's introduction of Sen. Biden as "the next president of the United States" -- can be sharpened into a poisoned blade.
When anyone blogs on one of these topics (for the twenty-fifth or -sixth time), the comment count soars over the century mark. When someone blogs about actual issues either in the reader blogs or on the front page, the comment count maybe struggles up to twenty.
This is just boring.
But this is the worst part: When anyone attempts to stimulate a debate about Sen. Obama's position on any issue* he or she is immediately attacked as a Hillary Die-Hard, a Republican Hack Troll, or a Wacky Left-Wing Dreamer. The argument is largely ignored. The topic becomes the poster's agenda, personality, style, and parentage.
To make it even worse, the tone of the insults are not just snarky and sarcastic, they're ugly and snide -- designed to hurt feelings rather than make points. Designed to attack the target's humanity. Then the attacker's buddies pile on with expansions, snickers, mutual congratulations, and more locker-room humor. Yeah, just like in Eighth Grade.
Just so you know: Interesting and clever people can play the game that way, and overall will do so better and with more effect than the assailants who initiate the food fight. But that game is only fun for a few minutes and often the antagonists lack the wit to understand the insults that come back at them, just as they lack the ability to see the spaghetti logic of their own arguments. So we choose not to play.
Even the Republican trolls have mostly fled, not because they have been out-argued but because they see that they have converted us to their methods.
So have fun throwing shit, boys and girls. Try not to get too much in your mouth.
* And if you have examined your conscience, you know that many of Sen Obama's positions are well right of center and that his overall attitude about the Constitution is at questionable at best.
Cheers.
August 26, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS: Don't forget your towel.
August 26, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't share in the embarrassment of Douglas Adams.
The last statement with the asterisk is simply not true. Sen. Obama is a solid Democrat, chosen as the Democratic nominee by millions of his fellow Democrats and endorsed by all of the other Democratic presidential candidates. He will cherish and uphold our Constitution. He's a former Constitutional Law Professor, for goodness sake!
August 27, 2008 10:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I totally understand. It is so hard to keep all those avatars straight, I was wondering when you would start to pare them down. So long green avatar, your thoughts can be reincarnated in another's I am sure.
August 26, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have nothing to say as to pouty portion of your post, but as to the following I do.
I agree that some of Obama's positions could be considered to be "right of center", but so what? It is a reality that one will not be elected as president running on a full throated progressive platform. (Just for the record, I understand that terms such as "progressive" and "right of center" are entirely subjective; and, thus, are somewhat meaningless.)
I do not at all agree with your comment about Obama's "attitude about the Constitution", a statement for which you provide no support.
I do not labor under any misconception that Obama's election will result in the establishment of social and economic justice or that all of the nation's and world's ills will be remedied.
I do believe that Obama is the most progressive democratic presidential nominee, with a real chance of election, of my lifetime. And this is one of a very few presidential elections where I don't feel I must choose between the "lesser of two evils."
And I believe that with the election of substantial majorities of democrats in the House and Senate there is a real prospect of policy changes for the better and for appointment of non-ideological justices to the Supreme Court.
The fact remains that given our goofy presidential election system in the nation, in the end we are left with two choices. So what are you going to do?
August 26, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
But this is the worst part: When anyone attempts to stimulate a debate about Sen. Obama's position on any issue* he or she is immediately attacked as a Hillary Die-Hard, a Republican Hack Troll, or a Wacky Left-Wing Dreamer.
Other people managed to raise and discuss every issue you raised, and not all of them came off looking like trolls when they did so. How do you reconcile that with your persecution complex?
August 26, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Idiots are your crutch too, Tankard.
And give my fucking fish back. I did not mean for you to keep it.
August 26, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I kind of like this post, but it's a little ugly and snide.
August 26, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not to mention boring.
August 26, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
The closest we get to interesting on the reader blogs these days is petty, inter-personal, internecine bickering. ...[snip]... It's about malignant spite.
[snip]
To make it even worse, the tone of the insults are not just snarky and sarcastic, they're ugly and snide -- designed to hurt feelings rather than make points. Designed to attack the target's humanity. Then the attacker's buddies pile on with expansions, snickers, mutual congratulations, and more locker-room humor. Yeah, just like in Eighth Grade.
Were you looking in the mirror when you wrote this part?
I'll bid you farewell with your own words:
Like it or don't. Couldn't care less.
Adjust your behavior or don't. I really couldn't care less.
August 26, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Were you looking in the mirror when you wrote this part?"
Fourth-grade insults as usual, from Jade 7243.
August 26, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I read that part I could have sworn I was listening to a long ago departed avatar Cypher.
August 26, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Offer us something better than the sniping you deride.
What is wrong with hunkering down to win an election? Why pick at the nominee's details now?
Join up with MoveOn to ask for undoing the fascist laws and executive-power directives. Lean on your Congresspersons to repeal odious legislation that might have been passed to avoid controversy for now.
But don't offer ammo to McCain and friends. These posts can end up in Google searches, one of the best reasons to avoid hyperbole and invective. You're not over the top here, but you're straining civility to call other posters "boys and girls", tossing fecal matter.
August 26, 2008 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tankard:
I read what you write, take it seriously, think about it, disagree with much of it, but would feel a real void if you didn't keep reminding us about things that we often don't want to hear. I hope you stay.
Bruce
August 26, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that tankard would be missed.
Just for one thing, the little mermaid from Budapest is such a beautiful avatar!
August 26, 2008 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with much of what you've said here, Tankard. Can't say I agree with you often, but at least you keep it civil and thoughtful, rarely if ever resorting to personal attacks and insults. I also find your comments and posts interesting, if not always my cup of tea. But I hope you will stay, if only to suggest course corrections from time to time and enliven our discussion with the topics that don't make the rec list as often as they should. Peace and best wishes.
August 26, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Read this, or don't:
I'm a bit surprised by your departure. In your explanation why you point to the bad behaviors of Obama supporters with no mention of the bad behavior of the Clinton (and McCain) supporters.
The primaries have been over for months, The very notion that there are still Obama(Dem. nominee), McCain(GOP nominee), AND Clinton(?) supporters says much about the roots of the current bad feelings. How often have those ugly skirmishes you mention been intentionally provoked by one or another Clinton supporter?
Your failure to mention these as factors for your departure indicates a severe bias on your part. I had not detected such a bias in your comments before. You chastise us for the negative tone of our comments, then you adopt exactly such a tone in your exit post.
It seems to me that back when you challenged NCSteve regarding his post about the importance of not slipping into defeatism, another commenter took you somewhat aback by suggesting you were being a "morose naysayer". I was surprised when that description of your comments stuck me as not far off the mark.
You obviously possess a sharp intellect, good education, and are generally quite thoughtful, yet I had come to feel your comments increasingly argumentative. You seemed to have become more interested in argument for its own sake, instead of using it to make or defend some particular political point.
You say you're bored. Well, you'll excuse us if we don't see our purpose here is to keep you entertained. If you were bored by the popular discussion threads then you should have started more threads that didn't bore you. Those times when you did do that generated much interesting discussion, if I recall.
August 26, 2008 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
You seem to have read a different Tankard post than I did, new10.
Seems to me he's interested in discussing political issues, not in playing a game where everyone must chose one of two categories called "Obama fan" or "Hillary fan" and then snipe at each other about their own internet personalities and the candidate images and how what they say fits into an Obama frame, Hillary frame, or the odd case a McCain frame, for that matter.
Since Obama is the Democratic party nominee for president, and in that process is bringing up political issues for the national electorate to discuss, that would naturally mean Tankard is interested in discussing some of those things, pro or con. If one takes a con position on this site, though, that drags one into the game of being either a Hillary or Obama supporter. It takes a lot of effort to say, no I'm not playing that game, the Obama people v. Hillary people game, or the Obama people v. McCain people game. I'm playing the discuss the issues game. All that effort, having to explain it all the time, takes a lot of fun out of it.
Discussing political issues is not the same as cheerleading or being on a fighting team for or against a political personality. And in this point in time, doing it actually has little to do with Hillary, which makes the game all the more absurd.
Irony is, I've been reading Tankard's offerings here for several years now. He never ever had a nice word to say about Hillary's stand on issues. But now he is forced to constantly explain he is not a Hillary supporter when he tries to talk about something with someone.
August 26, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Except, of course, he then proceed to discuss everything BUT the issues.
Unless we except his opening premise of, "Obama is a Warmonger and Constitutional Rapist, now what is your opinion on such and such political issue...."
Many of Tank's comments are of the "When did you stop beating your wife variety." Intellectually lazy and dishonest from a debating standpoint.
If he truly only wanted to debate the "issues" then he would dispense with the lies and innuendo about Obama, personal attacks on his supporters, snide comments if our ideas and his don't mesh and above all the condescending tone that is most often devoid of all historical context and a complete inability to see the grays in the American experiment.
Or the rest of us could be full of shit.
August 26, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I'm going to miss your comments and posts alot. I'm a little tired of the "anyone who doesn't support Obama is a racist" shit that prevails on this board. It isn't very helpful in bringing people to vote democratic.
August 26, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bev,
Thanks, for demonstrating my point.
August 26, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like I was trying to tell you on one of your previous threads, you have to blame it on the boss here. He believes that when an election is going on, forcing discussion of issues is like forcefeeding icky spinach. That the "get on a the team of a political personality and root for them" thing, and the slinging personal mud thing that goes along with it, is all for the good of the country in the end. It's very Straussian in a way. This turn of the site is welcome while the race is going on, and is encouraged from the top down coverage choices (except for the main page of TPMCafe, which is an elite little section kept for the issues people so some of them will still come here once the election is over and the big audience goes away; a nice side benefit in the meantime is the increase in traffic which means $$.) If you play here, you just have to accept that reality. It does make me feel guilty at times that I do support such an endeavor with my content and mouse clicks, but I still do it.
August 26, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, it's the site's fault that Tankard and some other thing-skinned bloggers can't take a little self-regulation by the group.
We ask for civility and that becomes an Echo Chamber. We caution not being too hard on the nominee in order to project a confident and united front to the world and somehow that becomes Jack Booted Thugs trying to Quash Dissenting Voice.
Ridiculous.
August 26, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
artappraiser,
I remember that article well. In terms of the dynamic of this site, the following quote from it seems germane (or perhaps merely ironic)
August 27, 2008 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whatever. Don't forget to vote.
August 26, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tankard, I abhor farewell posts, but I do want you to know that my few exchanges with you were awesome and truly memorable, even when they became a bit heated. Je m'en souviendrai toujours.
August 26, 2008 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
John McCain never had the opportunity to sign off from a website when he was a POW.
August 26, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's funny!
August 26, 2008 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nor did he have the chance to make Douglas Adams references around his non-existent POW kitchen table.
August 27, 2008 11:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aw, Tank! Don't stay gone too long. I reckon the craziness here at TPM will fade after the election. Hopefully we'll see a return to more of the kind of discussion you're looking for. But for now, a lot of people here are worrying about a McCain victory in November. And I'm afraid anxiety is bringing out the less attractive qualities of a lot of us.
Though you and I differ on ideological and spiritual matters, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts (and snarks!) and engaging with you.
Dang. Who will I flirt with now??
:-(
August 26, 2008 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tankard,
Oh, I will miss you.
-Lux
August 26, 2008 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tankard, The immediate reaction of some of these posters appear to support your contention, but is there satisfaction in being right this time?
There are quieter threads where adults hang out and talk. Look for Laura's, Quinn's, bslev, even Billay Glad does it sometimes. As a staunch opposition to Hillary's nomination, I find it ironic that many of them are Hillary supporters.
Wonder if Josh will consider setting up a Sidewalk Cafe for a different type of discourse free from the bar brawls? I.e., where it is possible to keep it civil with the more mature TPMers in charge and where the NOISE is kept low?
I've appreciated your input, many of them posts of reason sharpened by wit. I've sparred with you on various occasions but happily concurred with you on others. Will be a pity to see the departure of substance substituted by mob rule. Surely it is possible to set out a small chill space with room for a glass of wine, audio by Air, and a smoke? I'll bring the music.
August 27, 2008 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
And the Stasi's welcome too after a hard day of pummeling, hopefully on other sites and in the MSM at large, just leave the boots at the door is all I'm asking.
August 27, 2008 12:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tankard, though you profess not to care, I have three comments for you nonetheless...
1) The fuck-you-goodbye has become a TPM cliche. Desidero, an early pioneer of the fuck-you-goodbye even made the same Douglas Adams reference in the title, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish. Sadly, it was the second worst of his novels. Nor was it Desi's best post.
2) The quiet-return is almost as cliched as the fuck-you-goodbye. Desidero didn't last 24 hours, and I've lost track of the number of times that Glad promised to leave. Thank the gods that Cypher and has motley crew of avatars have stayed true to their vow (as far as I know).
3) I do sincerely hope that you return, as you are among the most clever and entertaining contributors to the cafe and a favorite of mine. (Even if you don't have the cajones to follow through on your blustery wager.) Which is not to say that I won't ridicule you if you return.
Otherwise, ciao. It's been a pleasure.
August 27, 2008 12:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't Desi due for another one of his exits? I think he's running behind schedule... Desi's repeated GBCW posts amuse me.
August 27, 2008 1:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Desi referenced the dolphins' line from one of the good Hitchiker's books - it can't be helped that Douglas Adams then chose to name another book after it.
Desi was truly out of here at that point, but got tasered by a then much younger Billy Glad, turning poor Des into a multi-personality multilingual vomit-spewing ringwraith. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
You might say after my last post my work is complete here. It points to the way Unity actually works, and contrary to CT, I don't want it to be all about me, and don't have the stamina to carry that much water anyway.
The funny thing, Laura, is that I said the world was cruel all along. Even my last post wasn't disavowing the dark side - it was pushing togetherness despite the dark side, through the dark side. We see through this glass darkly, but strive for an escape, an escape not enabled by pulling sediment and sludge together, but by refining our elements, our surroundings, engaging in personal and societal alchemy. As above, so below.
August 27, 2008 2:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I gotta say, your last post was amazingly effective, Des. There's something about you....
Anyway, CT's accusation can't be right. Yeah, you might be a bit narcissistic, but it's obviously not as shallow as being all about you, or else everyone would get tired of it and quit paying attention when you have something to say.
Well, whatever your next incarnation may be, I'll bet the place will be all the richer for it.
Cheers, Des!
August 27, 2008 2:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
We definitely need Desidero. No one else around here can turn mere politics into a dark multi-faceted allegory of . . .
I'm not sure what it's of, actually, but it's a dark multi-faceted allegory.
August 27, 2008 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, a need in your life you never realized you had until I pointed them out skulking about in the nether regions of wherever they're skulking about.
August 27, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
We've disagreed a lot, Tankard, but as you know, I've had respect for you at times and for your voice in spite of the resistance.
But I really have to disagree with your reasons for leaving. You've become disenchanted, and it seems that the issue isn't even about everyone else, but about yourself. Absolutely everything you say about Obama supporters, anyone could say about the Clinton supporters here, and then some.
Everyone has been attacked, ridiculed and virtually spit on here. I know I have, by numerous people at numerous times. And I can't say you've really been much of a friend to me.
If you want to leave because of that, then fine. I'm not going to encourage you to stay. But don't make this about everyone else, when it's really about you. Maybe you'll be back one day when you've sorted out your feelings.
Maybe not.
If not, then live long and prosper.
August 27, 2008 1:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow - Tankard, Tom Wright and ArtAppraiser all in one thread. I love it!
Over the past few years, the four of us (along with many others that are much missed) have discussed just about every political issue there was to discuss, fought a few trolls together (remember Fred Dobbs?) and made damn sure Harold Ford knew what we thought of the DLC. Has he ever posted here again?
The Harold Ford ouster is one of the few discussions that I can remember where we were all in agreement; the DLC sucks. But agreement and toeing the same line wasn't the point, at least not for me. The point was how very much I learned from everyone, and that consideration of different opinions expanded my own mind and took me to horizons that I would not have known about had we all not engaged. I may have been sleep deprived once in a while, but I never left empty-minded. :-)
While the winner of the election is important to me, ultimately my real interests are in the policies that Democrats will adopt and the political environment that will shape them. Like, do Democrats have enough political muscle get single-payer healthcare past the GOP heavyweights, and is single-payer the best way to go type of thing. I remember where ArtAppraiser stands on this issue, but more importantly, I remember her arguments that were based on political realities. The same goes for Tom who almost never gets a note wrong. :-)
So, without speaking for Tankard, especially when he's in a cranky, bored and bloviating mood, I think that's what he was trying to say.
And Laurajordan, I was flirting with Tankard first!
August 27, 2008 1:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hee hee! He's a hound dawg! I knew it!
Maybe your warm and nostalgic comment will coax him into sticking around.
Whaddaya say, Tank??
August 27, 2008 1:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and the old hound dawg has a shy side, too, I think. One time I told him the reason why women don't like to date neocons, and I swear I could 'read' his blush across the internets.
But he never sent a private message to let me know he was flirting elsewhere.
Oh, wait....
August 27, 2008 3:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
*Puts on the flirting music....*
August 27, 2008 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Was it the gap-tooth that first attracted you guys to Tankard? Cause I went through orthodontics to get rid of something similar. And now I see it could have worked for me.
August 27, 2008 7:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Are you bow-legged? That might work. :-)
I wish I had included you and BevD in the nostalgia above. Sorry, it was late.
August 27, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. Tankard, looks like you might have to suck it up and accept the fact that there are lots of folks at this place who really do want you to stay. You teach. That's a good thing.
August 27, 2008 7:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, my two cents is that he has to suck up and realize that there will always be new peoples coming on internet forums who act exactly like he used to act. :-)
August 27, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
My hope is that post-election the frothy circle jerk abates, and the domesticated trolls lose interest.
August 27, 2008 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Pearls need grit to grow.
Tank. The worst ones here are being shaken. Lotsa pee'ing & panicking. Good minds, hearts, wit & people who can be complete bastards are needed more than ever.
Besides. I just had 2 weeks of seafood Back Home, and some spaghetti might go down well for a bit.
Onward, toothed soldier!
August 27, 2008 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
There it is...couldn't have said it better
August 27, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bring on the NEW topics. Take pride in the disregard from many TPMers. When the personal beats the political, we're talking Facebook.
October 26, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm, it seems your disgust with "petty, inter-personal, internecine bickering" and "boys and girls" having fun "throwing shit" has obviously faded quite a bit in a couple months time. They drag you in again:
Admit it, you like baiting games.
October 28, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink