I Say, Let 'Em Crash
Oh things are going well my friends. This stock market crash could not have come at a better time. Just look at John McCain squirm. All we need are a few more major bankruptcies, and we'll have the election locked up. As a special bonus, the greedy bankers are getting screwed too. If we play our cards right, we can cap their salaries, take away their bonuses, and make them write 1000 times on the whiteboard, "I will not overleverage myself." That way, the next time there's an irrational market bubble, the new batch of bankers won't fall for the promise of easy money the way people did in every bubble for the past two centuries because they'll remember that the last batch of bankers lost their bonuses. But really, this isn't about reform. I just like watching rich assholes get kicked in the nuts. Speaking of which, how many more points do you think the market has to drop before those traders start jumping off buildings? Let's do a raffle.
Now I know that some of you credulous sheep have fallen for that line about how we have to save the banks for the sake of the economy. But like Hillary said, I'm not going to put my lot in with economists. Anyway, once we get G.W. out of office, everything will be perfect. As long as Obama doesn't let the dirty CEO's and bankers off the hook (I like the guy, sometimes he lets practicality get in the way of a good ass-kicking), the working class will finally get its due, and we'll all be taken care of. No Democratic President would ever let hardworking Americans lose their jobs and have to go on welfare. And without any surviving credit card companies, people won't even have to go into debt to buy stuff. Anyway, I figure that most people have enough savings to get them through a two or three years without a job if that's what it takes to save the working class. Seriously, the more evil banks go bankrupt, the better off the American people will be. I say, let 'em crash.
Now I know that some of you credulous sheep have fallen for that line about how we have to save the banks for the sake of the economy. But like Hillary said, I'm not going to put my lot in with economists. Anyway, once we get G.W. out of office, everything will be perfect. As long as Obama doesn't let the dirty CEO's and bankers off the hook (I like the guy, sometimes he lets practicality get in the way of a good ass-kicking), the working class will finally get its due, and we'll all be taken care of. No Democratic President would ever let hardworking Americans lose their jobs and have to go on welfare. And without any surviving credit card companies, people won't even have to go into debt to buy stuff. Anyway, I figure that most people have enough savings to get them through a two or three years without a job if that's what it takes to save the working class. Seriously, the more evil banks go bankrupt, the better off the American people will be. I say, let 'em crash.
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Love the clip!
September 22, 2008 3:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perfect video clip. I agree 100% - there is simply no logical reason we should save these companies from the consequences of their actions. Fuck the companies. We can help any people who may be caught without insurance or a job or in a mortgage limbo, but the companies themselves should perish as a lesson to other companies.
Less credit right now is a good thing. People don't need credit. They need a job that can pay the bills and a few pennies left over for a piece of gum. Hell, we may even be able to GO BACK to an America where a single income could get all that done, provide a vacation AND some savings at the end of the year. OK. Maybe not that last thing, but surely two working parents should be able to provide that without having two or three jobs each. Right? Isn't that the country we are?
The greed is just sickening. I have a feeling Barack won't be passing up any ass kicking that needs to be done once he wins. He just can't be Angry Black Guy right now and expect to win. I am sure we'll see what he picked up on the south side with these types of issues come January 20th.
I am reminded of when Barack asked a guy who questioned his dismissal of the gas holiday: "What do you drive? An Escalade?! Well, that's your problem right there." He then kind of laughed and shook his head before moving on. Didn't even need to tell us what his point was because it was painfully obvious.
That is why Barack will be the same kind of modern reformer that Carter was but be able to actually get things done like FDR by creating a governing majority of the vast majority of us - liberal and conservative - who reside in the common sense middle.
Great blog!
September 22, 2008 8:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Companies? We don't need no stinkin' companies. No banks either! All we need are good jobs. Lots of of jobs. Barack will give us as many jobs as we want because he knows how to give people jobs!
September 22, 2008 9:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's where he cut his teeth and the underlying premise of all his plans.
September 22, 2008 9:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Three or four or five companies going out business certainly doesn't mean the end of the US economy. If it does, then things are even worse than we think.
Yes, jobs are important to have here in the United States and promoting an environment that makes those jobs more likely to materialize is in our country's best interest. Renegotiating our trading policies and spending our money more wisely (most of which is spent by the executive branch) will lead to a more stable economy.
If we are paying $700 million for these companies then we should be majority stockholders and have the power to regulate them into something that isn't so damaging to the health of our economy. We can enforce standards of conduct again. We can certainly hold the executives accountable for their malfeasance.
No more free rides on the tax payers. You have a problem with that?
September 22, 2008 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, for a moment there, I though that we were on the brink of an economic catastrophe, and I started to get nervous about silly things like massive unemployment, expanding welfare roles, increasing violence, the usual doom-and-gloom stuff. But if it's just four or five companies, whatev. In that case, we can have our bankers and eat them too.
As for the free rides on the tax payers, I've written the mayor and the governor numerous times about ending the subway's subsidized ticket program, but they just ignore me.
September 22, 2008 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hard to have a conversation when it is done in snark mode. Not sure how to take things when they are presented in such a fashion.
Don't dismiss my call for accountability to mean cutting off my nose to spite my face and letting the economy fail in such a spectacular fashion, but nothing has proved to me we are in a crisis such as the one you describe. There is not a shred of evidence that says we must bail these people out yesterday with no strings attached.
Further, no one has shown that taking on such an enormous burden under the already enormous strain without calm and deliberate action wouldn't cause the catastrophe it is supposed to prevent.
September 22, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
The greed is just sickening.
That's the kicker!
September 22, 2008 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not entirely sure folks are getting the snark here.
The problem isn't bailing out the banks, it's giving them a blank check, and not demanding a smidgen of accountability. If you think a blank check is okey-dokey, you can send one to me. I promise I'll only use it to help rich bankers afford their vacation homes in Paris.
September 22, 2008 8:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now, now.
Don't you want to help ($700 billion worth of help) save ?engish's business?
September 22, 2008 8:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly! How much accountability do you want? I'll give you all that and more. You won't know what to do with the all the accountability. There will be an accountability glut, and then you'll have to bail out the accountability companies to keep them from going out of business and crashing the economy again. And it doesn't have to be a blank check. $100B should do just fine. I promise not to spend it on any subprime mortgages.
Please make the check out to:
☠enghis, Inc.
Government Bailout Recipient Department
1 Evil Corporate Lane
Suite #666
Corporate City, DE 19801
-----------------------------------------
☠enghis, Inc.
We put the "Accountability" in Accountability
September 22, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, yes, accountability. You're obviously a bright young man who knows the new 'one word":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
Oh and think mebbe you went a little too subtle on the irony in your post for this crowd? How about something more like this: Rich people, banks, jobs--we don't need no stinkin' rich people, banks, or jobs--we heard tell Obama's going to give everyone forty acres and a mule in January! To the guillotines!
September 22, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
What a load of horseshit. The non-snark reading of this blog is the correct answer, even if delivered in an illogical and over-0the-top manner.
To boil down arguments against a bailout that doesn't include strong controls to "Fuck the rich" and imply that we don't understand that many "rich people" help keep the whole thing doing is taking the absurdity a step too far.
So, sweet, you guys advocate a Blank Check and Free Ride. Noted.
September 22, 2008 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'll buy into Paul Krugman's suggestion: if propping up it should be like RTC, in that the stakeholders, i.e. us, get a say in how things are run. But simply buying up bad debt, and including Phil Gramm's UBS, a swiss bank, in the bailout, is insulting to common sense and deceny, in the extreme.
September 22, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not unless they save mine first. I want unlimited time on a golf course, and a $6,000 shower curtain, or I'm gonna have to take the economy down with me.
September 22, 2008 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
NYC gets the negative effects of the financial meltdowns first and worst, and we are feeling it already. I work in a large non-profit that is facing yet another round of budget cuts because of the loss of tax revenue - and that's assuming this situation doesn't get any worse. Not that we'll have to provide less services - demands for our services will go up, just less resources to work with. The people at the top some folks are so intent on punishing have the least to lose here. Instead of the 2 billion dollars, Maurice Greenberg will have to do with 100 million. It's hard to weep for him because he'll be fine.
But how about those employees who saw serious losses in their 401(k) value & will be facing an already tight job market?
Accountability - absolutely. Controls on executive compensation tied to stock performance - of course. Renegotiating mortgages for those who can afford to stay in their homes - yes! Letting these companies fail as some kind of perverse punishment that would have devastating ripple effects throughout the economy? Doesn't seem prudent.
And BTW - perhaps economists should have put their lot in with Hillary. She was the one calling for the federal gov't to have more direct intervention in foreclosure relief, which might have prevented where we are now.
September 22, 2008 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't that also the same Hillary who said we shouldn't listen to all those fancy pants economists when they called bullshit on her gas tax holiday? I remember her.
September 22, 2008 9:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Slogan contest! Everyone, propose your anti-banking slogan here. Winner gets a free government bailout. We already have a few nominations:
- Let 'em crash
- No more free rides on the tax payers
- No blank checks
- Fuck the companies
Guidelines: it should be concise and easy for people without economics degrees to relate to. Don't worry about oversimplification and cliches. It's all part of the fun.
September 22, 2008 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
- Protect Usurers My Ass. (since the PUMA movement needs some new folks to invigorate the dwindling numbers)
September 22, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
So would it be a joint venture? I like the "my ass" part, but "usury" is a bit too smart a word for this contest.
September 22, 2008 10:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Usury"!? "Too smart"!?
It's downright ELITIST!
September 22, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Banks Shmanks
September 22, 2008 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perfect!
September 22, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perfect pith Bruce :)
September 22, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue!
September 22, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't know if these are pithy enough:
Barter your way to prosperity
Once I built a railroad, I made it run, made it race against time. Once I built a railroad; now it's done. Brother, can you spare some sea shells?
Mad Max Lives!
September 22, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm with Genghis on this. Too many posts seem to have no comprehension of what a Depression looks like. Too many posts just scapegoating "bankers" - as though no one else bore any responsibility for this mess. I wonder if age has something to do with it, I donno - but to not have gone through serious recessions, much less depressions, well... it may make one a little quick off the mark.
As a very WORST case, let me say that if $700 billion WOULD avoid a Depression, then it's money VERY well spent. Because the costs of a Depression are just nightmarishly higher than that. I'm all for deciding what's sane to do, how to structure the thing properly, maybe we don't really need this at all, bring in regulation and fresh air, and trot the worst of the lot off to jail. But let's NOT make light of the cost of a serious recession or Depression. Anyone that comes from some of North America's eternally poor rural areas (as I do), or some of the inner cities, can give you a pretty good idea what life looks like when 20%-40%-80% of adults can never find paying work. Life breaks down, and it's worth almost anything to avoid that. You lose EVERYTHING. Job, savings, home... pride... family ties... health... future... hope. That's kindof an ugly line-up. Not sure I want to join it.
So maybe let's at least keep the conversation focussed on WHAT to do, rather than working up a Palin-style frenzy about who's evil, or how tough we wanna be.
September 22, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know what a depression looks like. I've seen the Dorthea Lange photos and they ain't pretty. What some folks here are missing is that a depression is exactly what plenty of folks have been living through the last few years. No work, lost their homes, bread lines, the whole bit.
Did anyone care then? Not really. Now that it's stark reality ishas caught up to them and is staring them in the face, our upper 5% want a hand out to stave off the inevitable.
How is that gonna help, exactly? We've already lost the jobs. We've already lost our savings. Maybe if these jokers hadn't squeezed each and every penny so damn hard and shared their wealth a bit we wouldn't be in this situation, but nothing is going to change until we get the corrupt pols out of there.
This is a last ditch effort by Bush and Co. to get every stinking bloody dime they can get from the stoney American public. And Yeah, we should be talking tar and feathers, pitchforks, and prison time. LOUDLY.
The question is, what took so long?
September 22, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly right. There are millions of people living a Depression-Era life right now that we don't get pictures of on MSNBC.
Perhaps it isn't as wide-spread as the original, but who is to say that continuing to turn a blind eye to the excesses in the system won't cause the crash Hank say this money will avoid.
There are complexities here (not to mention simple justice) that throwing good money after bad doesn't address.
September 22, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please see 1980:
http://www.miseryindex.us/customindexbyyear.asp?StartYear=1977&EndYear=2007
September 22, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ha! 1980 will look like disneyland compared to what is coming.
September 22, 2008 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about regional breakdowns? I was saying that there are pockets in this country that have been living in a depression for several years now.
You might not believe it, but I bet Obama is perfectly aware of it. Anyone that's spent any time driving across this country knows it, too.
Tell me, how's the unemployment figures looking in the rust belt?
Apples and Oranges.
September 22, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bwak, why are you making me do your research for you? The highest unemployment rate in the country right now is in Michigan...
MI 8.9 / Nov. 1982 16.9
OH 7.4 / Jan. 1983 13.8
PA 5.8 / Mar. 1983 12.9
Want any more? They're all here: http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm
September 22, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, those numbers calculated the same way they were in 1982?
DOH!
Um, no. But hey, you can look up stuff I already know for me anytime.
=D
September 22, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still a mighty big "If" in this entire premise that not a single person has explained or refuted.
Don't misread skepticism of the proposed context by known liars to be Pollyanna or unable to envision a way we could step in to stop some sort of meltdown. If measured and rational and deliberate debate leads to some sort of publicly-funded bailout of certain companies under certain conditions then I am all for that.
Giving Hank Paulson a blank check with no transparency and no accountability seems like a bad idea. If Bill Kristol doesn't even like it, then chances are we should look twice.
The threat of action was enough to stabilize things. Now is the time for thought. Then comes to time for action.
September 22, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
You think things are stable right now? Not long ago there were 5 MASSIVE multi-billion dollar investment banks on wall street. Now there are none.
The world's largest insurance company is now controlled by the government.
The companies that facilitate the morgages on 70 percent of American homes are controlled by the government.
Taxpayer money of 700 billion soon to be more dollars is going to be spent on a bailout, complete with all moral hazard involved (the people doing this are not stupid)...why the hurry?
Interbank lending rates are still jaw droppingly high, the TED spread is out of control, and interest rates on 3 month T bills at one point WENT NEGATIVE. Gold jumped 11 percent in one day. For those who know little about finance, these are all very very very very very very bad signs of a compelete meltdown of the global economy. That is no exaggeration. Let me repeat it.
A complete meltdown of the global economy.
Paulson is desperate, everyone is desperate, because credit markets are STILL frozen and without liquidity the economy will freeze up like an engine without motor oil.
But Cox puts the axe on ALL short sales and magically the stock market goes up 300 points in five minutes and yo yos like yourself think that means that things are stable.
Get a clue.
September 22, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
the world's largest insurance company in the world is not controlled by the government but by the fed reserve which used your money and my money to take it over. that's part of the problem. i say no bail out. i want to see more options and i want to know what consequences are likely without the $800 bil plus.
September 22, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
the world's largest insurance company in the world is not controlled by the government but by the fed reserve which used your money and my money to take it over. that's part of the problem. i say no bail out. i want to see more options and i want to know what consequences are likely without the $800 bil plus.
September 22, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
[deep breath]
It's hard to know where to begin. So I won't. I'll just make some suggestions.
Do you have any idea why the Fed stepped in with AIG?
Do you know what a CDS contract is? What it does?
Do you know how deep AIG was in CDS contracts?
Do you know that if left alone, the CDS market was almost guaranteed to fail (and still might?).
Do you know what it would mean if the CDS market failed, and failed rapidly (i.e. a 5 trillion dollar market folding in the space of 3 days)?
I'm not saying the bailout is a good idea (although Dodd's plan makes me at least not want to s--t my pants) but I still think that most people who don't know finance don't realize how
f--ked
we
are
AIG: NOBODY liked it. Do you think shareholders liked seeing their capital dissolve into nothing? Do you think the CEO's liked being branded with this for the rest of their lives and summarily dismissed? Do you think the Fed enjoyed taking potentially hundreds of billions of dollars of really bad CDS contracts on their balance sheets? You think Bush is going to enjoy being the president who ramroded us into a three trillion dollar war and then raped our economy?
NOBODY liked it. I understand the anger. But at least try to do some research first so you don't sound like an empty headed rabid populist (i.e. McCain wanting to "punish the fatcats on Wall Street" or whatever bulls--t he's saying this week
September 22, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a bunch of semantic bullshit with no attribution and a lot of chicken little pronouncements that no one else is talking about and some fairly smart economists who are lot smarter than both of us think is not quite as bad as they are making out to be.
So, really? are we fucked because of some esoteric bullshit that no one understands? You need to get off your high horse with your pseudo education and find some common sense - we shouldn't bailout anything without some guarantees for our investment.
You need to step away from the koolaid, kemosabe, and stop calling people ignorant based on your own, extremely one-sided view of this.
If are system is so fragile then we are already fucked and bailing out a bunch of compulsive gamblers at the expense of future generations isn't my idea of a great deal for the American tax payer unless we get something out of the deal.
September 22, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, concentrate your fire. You can argue for delay, for a different deal, for punishing the worst, etc. But the stuff about today being like the Depression but not quite as widespread... and how bad can the loss of 3 or 4 companies really be.. this is just impossible to back, ok? Unemployment today has increased by what, 2-4 million? To reach Great Depression rates we'd have to throw ANOTHER 30-40 million out of work. GDP is down what, maybe 2-4%? Well, take off another 25%. Then take the wages of everyone LEFT working and cut them by 40%. Set up camps in the edges of cities holding millions, and put tens of millions on the roads. Take the Dow down not just from 14,000 to 11,000, but cut it to 2,000. You're killing your argument, and burying your questions, by talking along these lines.
On finance, all I know is that the financial sector is NOT like any other goods-producing sector. If we lost GM & Ford & Chrysler, that'd be a nightmare - especially in terms of regionalized unemployment. But when banks go, they're like the system that pumps invisible blood through EVERY company. Understand me here. I HATE finance, I'm an economist. "We make sense - they make shit up." And my mind balks every time it has to approach it. But it is just NOT possible to compare finance, one-top-one, with autos or steel or whatever.
Part of the reason it is so frightening today is that these guys are leveraged out at 22:1 or 30:1. Now, if a $100 Billion company goes under and is leveraged out like that, that's trillions of dollars worth of activity that gets tied up. In many cases, halted for months. Maybe years. And in so doing, other actors often then fear to move near whole sectors and products. And when they DO manage to sell this shit off, it drives down prices and values for everyone. It spirals outward, and a whirlpool forms.
Another reason I'm scared shitless is the US is in such massive international debt - a subject rarely heard within the country - and has trillions of $$$ held by foreigners. It may sound like mumbo-jumbo to you and me, but if T-Bills are offering a 0% rate of interest, why other nations would want to invest in them? And if they don't, the US $ crashes in value. And that can trigger some ugly ugly things. Hyperinflation. Or Government's responding by pushing interest rates up to 20% and beyond.
Last thing. An awful lot of us want to bash the rich. Many of them have been without morality, eaten up by greed, and have destroyed lives as they went. But when "the banks" go belly up, it is not -in terms of 99% of its consequences - going to hit THEM. Look. They've made their money, it's wealth now, let's go tax it later. Let's even handcuff them from taking more if we like, I don't care. But you HAVE to see that when they go under, not only do tens of thousands of their employees go under, but firms all across the US may then stop hiring and go under. Same with hedge funds, love 'em or hate 'em. Some of the biggest are investing for the universities, for pension funds - as well as for evil billionaire bastards. So your public policy issue is, "If we hate the bastards who ran these funds, do we screw them down into the dust, even if it means taking away any chances at bursaries for tens of thousands of students, and even if it crushes hundreds of thousands of pensioners?"
Other people will have to spell out the condition and implications of failure for these incredibly complex financial instruments... and I'm happy to discus, and learn, about what we can do next. But the comparisons to Great Depressions, the easy lumping of financial firms in with any other companies, the failure to recognize that the real-world hit will be borne by tens of millions, and the fact that this is not just about a hate-on for the big money boys - that stuff is extraneous, counterproductive and probably needs to go.
September 22, 2008 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, we are fucked because of esoteric bullshit that *you* don't understand.
By no one else, do you mean you and your circle of friends? Because plenty of people are talking about it.
What attributions do you want? How about this:
Equity markets are controlled at this point by fear, because nobody trusts anybody. If that 500 point jump on Friday made you feel better, how do you feel today?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EDJI
Pretty scary, huh? Maybe that's because 1 trillion dollars disappeared from the economy in less than a week last week, and if you haven't heard, there are no independent investment banks left on Wall Street.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/97a410b6-884a-11dd-b114-0000779fd18c.html
So what? I hear you cry. Let all the greedy fatcats burn in their own greedy greed they deserve to go down in flames because they're greedy! Down with greed!
When the CEO of Bank of America was asked how many of the 8,100 commercial banks would make it through this crisis, he responded, "About half."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/52822.html
Maybe he's full of chicken little bullshit too, just like me? He's the most powerful banker in the world but I bet he doesn't know shit. You're way smarter.
So, let's see, so far we have Leahman Brothers, AIG (I'll be generous and call it a bank, even though it's not), Merrill Lynch, and pretty soon we'll have Wachovia added on to the pile. I think the CEO of Bank of America knows what he's talking about. So, let's see, so far we have had 3, let's make that 4, bank failures out of a few thousand that may still be coming. And look what effect that has had.
Because we're not just talking about home prices going down, and foreclosures, which would be bad enough by themselves,(they're down 20 percent from peak so far and most think there's still a way to go before we see a bottom in this market, for reasons that would take a texbook to explain)
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/26/real_estate/Case_Shiller_home_price_report/index.htm?postversion=2008082611
We're talking about the asset-backed securities you've all been hearing about that were derived from pools of these mortgages (actually they are looked at as pooled cash flows). Most are at least a little familiar with ABS and know a bit about these toxic derivatives even if they aren't quants who know the math (yes I am currently taking a doctorate level class in derivatives so shove that up your ass).
So yeah, these have blown up. And because they are highly leveraged, they have cost many times more than the original underlying asset. And because they are mixed in with other mortgages that are actually good, it looks like these sucker bets are messing up price signals in the whole market, as nobody knows what any of the investments are worth (for many complicated reasons). Basically, the rotten apples are spoiling the whole bunch.
So maybe we can ride that out. And a few investment banks burn. Boo hoo. So what?
Well, if that was all there was, that would be fine. But now we have some rapidly cascading effects...first of all, many of these investment banks who were selling these subprime investments to the commercial paper market were leveraged at a rate of up to 30:1, so in order to hedge that credit risk (coupled with a maturity risk because CP usually has a 6 month to one year maturity and mortgages have a 15-30 or more year maturity), banks took out among other things CDOs (Collaterized Debt Obligations). What these do is act as insurance on cash flows from mortgages. If some of the morgages underlying the investments go bad, the seller must pay part of the cash flows which are due to investors who hold commercial paper from those banks. Otherwise, the bank pays a premium for these CDO contracts.
AIG was one of the world's leading issuers of these CDO's, and the market was huge...
www.sifma.org/research/pdf/SIFMA_CDOIssuanceData2008.pdf
Trillions of dollars of VERY highly leveraged bets on these mortgages, basically insuring debt with debt. Finance geeks and clueless assholes who criticize me should read this article which gives some insight on how CDO markets work
www.banque-france.fr/gb/publications/telechar/rsf/2005/etud1_0605.pdf -
These loans weren't risky and would actually serve to smooth cash flows and efficiently distribute risk AS LONG AS information about the risk profile of these asset backed securities was correct. We all know how that turned out.
Once these banks started defaulting, a wave of claims was starting to swamp AIG. AIG had capital, but not enough to pay out on a systematic failure. So basically it was a modern version of an old fasioned bank run. And since nobody trusted AIG because it was so highly leveraged in these complex derivatives, nobody wanted to give it the capital. So the Fed stepped in and opened up new channels that made it possible for AIG to accept FED loans, which confirmed market fears, which just accelerated everything. Next thing you know they're taking 85 billion from the US Fed at 11 point something percent interest (it's LIBOR plus some ridiculously high premium). And those outstanding CDO contracts? Well, we don't know how those will get paid.
Because we don't know, Lehman and all these other banks that are trying to collect on these payments can't get money, and are already completely out of capital themselves, and can't borrow anything because everyone knows they're teetering on the brink of failure, which means they can't pay back investors holding even the safest grade of CP, which means nobody is buying on the CP market anymore. It's basically shut down.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9cmb_Gl5Drs&refer=home
So what do you care about CP investors? Here's what you care...most corporations and medium sized businesses used to get funding from the CP market because it was cheap, low rate financing. Banks aren't lending to each other, the credit spreads are the highest they've been in decades, and nobody's willing to invest much in anything, as shown by the price of gold and especially by the interest rate of the 3 year T bill...
http://investmenttools.com/thefed/3_month_t_bill_rate.htm
What does this mean? This is generally considered the safest investment on the market, as the US government has a low chance of defaulting and 3 months is the shortest time period available. Notice how people are basically willing to give the government their money for free, or even less than free, because they don't trust the markets to preserve the value of their capital. Last week this rate reached the lowest point since the early 1940's and we know how great the economy was then...
Here's where you give a shit. There is no more credit. Have you read in the papers when it says that credit markets are FROZEN? Many many businesses finance themselves with as high of a debt to equity ratio as they can get away with, because debt is cheaper than equity and there's a tax shelter for interest payments. But now, sources of credit aren't only becoming prohibitively expensive, they are becoming really difficult to find at all.
This means that businesses won't invest in projects unless they are incredibly profitable, because there is neither debt nor equity financing readily available on capital markets.
This means that many businesses will die. All over the world...which means less jobs...which means poor retail sales...even less jobs...inflation might come about (but might not, reasonable economists disagree) from pumping trillions of dollars into the economy...poor countries in Africa that you don't think can get any poorer? They will. Not to mention the price paid in future living standards, government programs, defense (I hate it as much as you do but we do need it). Everything will get a lot shittier if we don't do something.
The problem is not me being chicken little, the problem is you having your head up your ass and thinking the markets are stable and things are fine. That's just stupid.
September 22, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
But other than THAT, everything's good, right? ;-)
Thanks man. Add a bit more cussing & post this, willya?
P.S. I'd appreciate it if you could drop my name in there as one of your know-nothing opponents though, ok? The mob's running a bit heavy right now, and I figure if you rank on me in public, they'll figure I'm one of THEIRS, savvy?
Cheers. I owe ya dude.
September 22, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem is you explaining things like this and then cussing all us plebes out for not understanding one word in ten and wrapping it all up in, "Trust us. We know better because we caused the crisis in the first place."
If you want support for this from the ranks of us who don't believe every peep that comes out of Wall Street and the heads of banks that fucked us in the first place, then perhaps you can find a way to do so that explains in English what we will get for our $700 billion.
Or, you can keep spouting off about we are idiots and you are the Master Economic Analyst of the Known Universe or you can actually provide some rational and reasonable context to the discussion.
Context that provides SOLUTIONS and not band aids. All I hear from you is how bad it is and how stupid we are that we can't see that fact. Not a great method of converting people to your cause.
The only person here that has come close to presenting a rational view of this that morons such as myself can understand is Quinn and that is because he explained to be understood and not to be admired for his professorial understanding of the subject at hand.
September 22, 2008 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jeez man I gave you links and economic data and tried to help you out with an explanation because you thought I was being too vauge before and you were saying you didn't understand in anything but broad strokes so I was trying to be more specific so you would have a clearer understanding of the picture. If it went over your head I'm sorry but don't paint me for being some kind of elitist asshole because *you* don't get it.
By the way I don't work on wall street and I didn't cause anything. But keep on talking like you know what you're talking about...
September 22, 2008 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
You provided a dissertation and a continued harangue as to why we are stupid for not understanding something that is painfully obvious to you and to at least half of the economic elite but not so obvious to others and seems to be more of the fear-based decision making that gets this country into trouble all the time.
September 22, 2008 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
If it's not obvious to you, then try to understand it. I've tried to help you by explaining what's happening in the markets.
Do not shoot your mouth off about how everything is hunky dory and this is all just the rich trying to sham us all into a trick bailout and then cry about how it's all too over your head and way too complicated to understand when someone who actually studies what is going on tries to point out that your righteous indignation is incoherent.
Either try to understand it, or STFU.
September 22, 2008 9:21 PM | Reply | Permalink