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Manifesto


I hate lies and liars. 

I hate it when they lie about us, and I hate it just as much when we lie about them.

I detest gotcha politics, no matter who does it.  I can't abide twisting the truth to score political points.

I won't tolerate attacks on any candidate's family, especially on their children.  Attacking Sarah Palin and her daughter, even -- no, especially -- if it's done on the pretense of being "concerned" about McCain's judgment in picking a running mate is despicable.

I support Barack Obama because, watching his acceptance speech, I decided finally that whatever else he is, above all else he is sincere.  Honest.  Without guile.  Trying to win cleanly and enter office clean.

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I have nails if someone has a hammer.

By the by, I would venture to guess that aside from using it as a cover for one's degenerate fixation on the family you agree that McCain's piss-poor judgment in not vetting the person he picked to become President should something happen to him is fair game? 'Cause I am not "concerned" about that, I am "outraged."

Name ONE politician who is not a liar.

It's a prerequisite to the job.

This "not vetted" stuff is just another one of those arbitrary requirements tossed out, that I'm sure would have been justified ignoring if our candidate had done the ignoring.

Reagan picked Bush at the last minute on an aide's suggestion just so he wouldn't have to pick Ford.

Bush had his chief vetter vet his VP pick, who happened to be his chief vetter. Things can get worse.

Oddly enough, I think the "she's not qualified" statement lost its sting and effectiveness some months ago, which is a shame, because now it would come in handy.

Yeah, I do not think so. It is now also confirmed that McCain did not bother to actually get to know and/or vet the person he decided will be President if he is incapacitated.

Reckless.

It's not a sexist remark, so try again. I would wonder the same for a father of five children, one less than a year old with special needs and another about to have a child at age 17. I'm thinking about this from my perspective as a father, one who hates when people call the time I spend caring for and being with my daughters babysitting. You don't babysit your own children. I would love to have more children, the only reason we have not is because we have limited resources (time and money). Yes, these are personal decisions but they are part of our story (as would be our choice in school, the church we attend, etc...)

And, I didn't say she should be disqualified and truly admire her commitment to service. But, it's as valid a discussion as was the question whether Obama should have allowed his children to be interviewed. I'm sharing my perspective, not a judgement. You've decided I'm either sexist or politicizing what should remain private. That's your right, but it's not where I'm coming from.

Agreed. Focus on Sarah Palin and John McCain.

Question for Billy, was it appropriate to question Obama's decision to do a family interview with Access Hollywood? I think it was a fair discussion point, but filled with entirely too much "moral" judgement from people living in glass houses. With this in mind I do think Sarah's decision to join the ticket and give up so much time with her young family considering their circumstances deserves discussion. It must be an incredibly difficult decision. For me it is both admirable and impossible to understand.

Obama has worked in another state from his small children for the last 4 years, with much of it spent on the road campaigning. Should we put a new amendment in to the Constitution - parents of small children ineligible for office, or does this just apply to women?

Desidero: My reply got posted to the wrong thread, see above if you are interested.

Actually, it's just a thought I've had for about a year. Women typically raise kids during the prime of their lives and then when someone looks at their resume, it's "is that all you've done?" The easy acceptance of a father spending most of his time in another city is just another indication.

I know several fathers who have taken breaks in their career to raise their children. They are the exception, but I would expect they will encounter similar reactions. There is a lot of old school thought when it comes to parenting and within that sexism plays its part. Fathers can also pay the price for this in their relationships with their children.

Since you want to make this about Obama, ask yourself how he would be judged had he a daughter in the same situation as Palin. Racism and sexism exist, but by linking every discussion to the views of others your own seems to get lost.

I know several fathers who have taken breaks in their career to raise their children. They are the exception, but I would expect they will encounter similar reactions. There is a lot of old school thought when it comes to parenting and within that sexism plays its part. Fathers can also pay the price for this in their relationships with their children.

Since you want to make this about Obama, ask yourself how he would be judged had he a daughter in the same situation as Palin. Racism and sexism exist, but by linking every discussion to the views of others your own seems to get lost.

There is a choice there. Some women chose kids over career, some choose career over kids, and some think they ought to have all of it, all the time, with no delay, and to hell with everybody else.

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Period and amen.

Can I have an amen?

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Period and amen.

Errr, thank you again, Brother.

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Period and amen.

Somebody wanna get some water? Brother Bruce appears to have gotten a bit carried away.... ;-)

LOL you're good!

Co-freaking-signed. Thanks.

I'm with you.

I don't know. If I remember correctly, the more my parents bitched at me to NOT do something, the more I wanted to do it. Does it carry any weight that even when adults bitch at adults to NOT do something and those on the receiving end of the bitch continue to do that something mean that maybe, just maybe bitching doesn't work at any developmental phase in life?
One thing I don't like Obama (but love him all the same) is that he has a tendency to come off as "scolding" people. But that's just me.

"...whatever else he is, above all else he is sincere. Honest. Without guile."

Harharharhar!!!

And the Obamabots actually bought it, and recommended your blog!

Harharharhar!!!

What I like about Obama is that he can levitate by wiggling his nose!

Harharharhar!!!

What I like about Obama is that when he chopped down the cherry tree, he blamed it on Jeremiah Wright!

I cannot tell a lie!

Let's just call him "Honest Obe!"

Harharharhar!!!

"Honest Obe!"

This is the log cabin where "Honest Obe" was born!

Harharharhar!!!

And there's Lalo35adm's avatar!

"Honest Obe!"

If only Lincoln had learned how to make that shit-eating grin on demand!

And there's Obama's shit-eating grin on the ad for his website right here on the same page!

Imagine that face on a $5 bill!

You're goddamned right he doesn't look like Presidents on the dollar bills!

We had to wait more than 200 years before the voters got stupid enough to elect a con-man with a shit-eating grin!

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Oh my. So sorry Billy. I do agree with you though lol.

Sarah Palin is anti-sex education, anti-contraception and anti-choice (even in cases of rape and incest).

Just sayin'.

I support Barack Obama because, watching his acceptance speech, I decided finally that whatever else he is, above all else he is sincere. Honest. Without guile.

I knew you weren't going to campaign for McCain in IN/OH, Billy. When will we ever be able to take you at your word? ;-)

Billy Glad mad. Billy Glad smash.

That never ceases to crack me up! ;^}

Amusing.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/four-nights-of-tears-of-joy.php

I think the motive of most cynical politicos is to own Obama. If he actually makes it without lapsing into cynicism, he won't really be yours, will he? And then you'll have to go back to doing whatever it was you were doing before the silly political season came along. Hmmmm?

Dude, I for one am so proud to bawl out crying in public come November and January, regardless of the electoral results.

I'm guessing you only feel sorry for yourself.

btw, rec'd, tu as raison.

He's really fighting it from two sides - the entrenched democratic interests are also fighting to assert their control of the party via campaign strategy (DLC types in specific - they aren't too happy he pulled operations out of their seat of power to Chicago). The way events unfolded, many people who are used to running the show found themselves on the outside. It seems that the convention got him some buy-in that will help him continue his course (he convinced YOU he's not a shill - that's impressive). But he must have been under enormous pressure with the "attack! attack!" drumbeat coming into to convention.

In some respects, I think this nonsense probably helps Obama keep on his game. If it seems he needs to keep on top of troops dishing every piece of dirt - he'll have less pressure to press controversial issues and more freedom to choose the killers wisely.

Billy, didn't you support Hillary? I find it hard to believe you are a stickler for honesty, sorry.

Palin should be attacked on issues of the policies she advocates, not her daughter's pregnancy.

Teen pregnancy, low education levels for women and high divorce rates are highest in America precisely in areas where Palin-like policies are part of the social fabric. Fundamentalist religion, lack of practical sex education, inbred male chauvinism are more prevalent in the American South, as are the social ills conservative politicians rail against. I would argue that it is precisely the policies that Palin advocates and want to instutute for the rest of the country are creating a generation of American children who are not fully capable to resist social and sexual pressures of modern American society. While her daughter's pregnancy is not germaine to the larger argument, it is symptomatic of the trend right wing policies have been creating in parts of America where they have been implemented.

Democratic criticism of Palin should be centered on the policies she advocates. But her daughter's pregnancy by no means should server as some kind of "politically correct" shield to silence that criticism.

Palin should be attacked on issues of the policies she advocates, not her daughter's pregnancy.

Teen pregnancy, low education levels for women and high divorce rates are highest in America precisely in areas where Palin-like policies are part of the social fabric. Fundamentalist religion, lack of practical sex education, inbred male chauvinism are more prevalent in the American South, as are the social ills conservative politicians rail against. I would argue that it is precisely the policies that Palin advocates and want to instutute for the rest of the country are creating a generation of American children who are not fully capable to resist social and sexual pressures of modern American society. While her daughter's pregnancy is not germaine to the larger argument, it is symptomatic of the trend right wing policies have been creating in parts of America where they have been implemented.

Democratic criticism of Palin should be centered on the policies she advocates. But her daughter's pregnancy by no means should server as some kind of "politically correct" shield to silence that criticism.

Palin should be attacked on issues of the policies she advocates, not her daughter's pregnancy.

Teen pregnancy, low education levels for women and high divorce rates are highest in America precisely in areas where Palin-like policies are part of the social fabric. Fundamentalist religion, lack of practical sex education, inbred male chauvinism are more prevalent in the American South, as are the social ills conservative politicians rail against. I would argue that it is precisely the policies that Palin advocates and wants to instutute for the rest of the country are creating a generation of American children who are not fully capable to resist social and sexual pressures of modern American society. While her daughter's pregnancy is not germaine to the larger argument, it is symptomatic of the trend right wing policies have been creating in parts of America where they have been implemented.

Democratic criticism of Palin should be centered on the policies she advocates. But her daughter's pregnancy by no means should server as some kind of "politically correct" shield to silence that criticism.

Palin should be attacked on issues of the policies she advocates, not her daughter's pregnancy.

Teen pregnancy, low education levels for women and high divorce rates are highest in America precisely in areas where Palin-like policies are part of the social fabric. Fundamentalist religion, lack of practical sex education, inbred male chauvinism are more prevalent in the American South, as are the social ills conservative politicians rail against. I would argue that it is precisely the policies that Palin advocates and wants to instutute for the rest of the country are creating a generation of American children who are not fully capable to resist social and sexual pressures of modern American society. While her daughter's pregnancy is not germaine to the larger argument, it is symptomatic of the trend right wing policies have been creating in parts of America where they have been implemented.

Democratic criticism of Palin should be centered on the policies she advocates. But her daughter's pregnancy by no means should server as some kind of "politically correct" shield to silence that criticism.

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When do you have that walk across water scheduled, Billy?'

I just can't wait.

Man that halo does shine!

I realize your position is that you're not the candidate so you can be as low you feel like being. Like a friend of mine used to say, a lot of people have knives and forks and not a lot of food on the table. They have to cut something. I've hung out with some of the dirtiest, most effective politicians on the planet. Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to imagine that I'm hanging out with a clean one for a while, even if I'm just on the edge of it all instead of at the red hot center like you. I'm going to see how it feels to believe you can run a clean campaign and still get elected.

Billy's gotta have SOME kinda Special Blessing working for him Tena, considering he posted this the ONCE... and apparently succeeded. I think there's some kinda prophecy (Ezekiel 17?) about events like this:

"And in the time of Convention, the Blogsphere shall become Chaotic, and many shall over-personalize the issues and raise Scandal... (begat... begat... some more begats...) BUT FEAR NOT OH YE SHEEP! For I shall send you a voice of great calm - B. Glad."

It's either Ezekiel. Or Des. Gonna have to check the records.

I'll claim it whatever it was, Billy's call for honesty be damned. (See, now they'll stop saying we're one person or deity).

Palin should be attacked on issues of the policies she advocates, not her daughter's pregnancy.

Teen pregnancy, low education levels for women and high divorce rates are highest in America precisely in areas where Palin-like policies are part of the social fabric. Fundamentalist religion, lack of practical sex education, inbred male chauvinism are more prevalent in the American South, as are the social ills conservative politicians rail against. I would argue that it is precisely the policies that Palin advocates and wants to instutute for the rest of the country are creating a generation of American children who are not fully capable to resist social and sexual pressures of modern American society. While her daughter's pregnancy is not germaine to the larger argument, it is symptomatic of the trend right wing policies have been creating in parts of America where they have been implemented.

Democratic criticism of Palin should be centered on the policies she advocates. But her daughter's pregnancy by no means should server as some kind of "politically correct" shield to silence that criticism.

Duh, "server error" message doesn't mean it will not post...

Sorry.

Not your fault. Nobody is making it work today. Your point is well taken. Everything she stands for is embodied in the Republican platform.

I was thinking about this whole debacle earlier today. I'll offer you my thoughts.

I'm perfectly fine with the tradition of leaving the children of a candidates out of the fray. They're kids. They didn't choose this. I think this is a pretty simple kind of decency that anyone should be able to appreciate.

I also don't think Palin's daughter should be raked over the coals for being pregnant. Teenage girls get pregnant.

However, this brings me to my final thought. Just as Palin's daughter is an innocent young person who did nothing more than have sex, so are all the legions of innocent young people who suffer at the hands of the self-proclaimed morally-superior religious right. To this end, Palin's daughter should have nothing to answer for, but forwarding Palin as a Vice Presidential candidate means that these assholes should have to answer for all of their supposed righteousness.

I'm perfectly happy to see the McCain campaign explain how the shoe ended up on the other foot. I'd also like to hear from Dobson, Robertson, Reed and others, although I suspect we'd get nothing but tepid rationalizations.

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How many 17 year-old unmarried girls have their mother announce to the entire United Staes that they are pregnant? Palin knew she would have to do this when she accepted.

I consider it child abuse!

Who is going to take care of the Down Syndrome child?

OK, McCain had terrible judgement when he chose her, but she also has terrible judgement in terms of parenting. How about Willow? She will really be alone I guess.

The children are the victims here.

Indeed.

Recommended for sure. I think there are plenty of other things to hammer McCain-Palin with that don't involve slinging mud and wrecking a teenage girl's life. Way to go, Billy. I knew you'd come around to our guy given enough chances. :O)

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Well call it mud folks, but it worked.

According to Reuters, the McLame campaign was forced to announce the pregnancy way before they were ready to.

Millions of American mothers said: O snap - she has really weird priorities.

Y'all are pretending outrage over exactly nothing. But carry on - I know it feeds your egos.

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Here's the Reuters link -

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSN0243503220080902?virtualBrandChannel=10112

Keep telling yourselves about how righteous y'all are.

You keep telling yourself you're not low.

You keep telling yourself you didn't take Palin seriously and add to the hysteria.

One last thing, you want to know what was low, ya old sod? Taking this putrid example of a human being and hollering about what a great woman she was and how she was some brilliant move on the part of McCain. Do you want to know how that made normal women feel?

Pretty damned low.

You could have shown some quality by sticking up for women here, but instead you got on your soapbox and tried to tell us she was some kind of "great American."

(spit)

Maybe tend to the beam in your eye, ya fargin chavinist pig.

Chauvinist pig? You need to get your clock fixed. I don't know what you're talking about.

Why wouldn't I or anyone else take her seriously? She's a candidate for VP of the United States. She could be President if McCain is elected and dies. How does it serve women to attack her family and her daughter? Do you think Obama is a chauvinist for telling you to STFU? Off limits. Especially the children. You hard of hearing?

Why wouldn't someone take her candidacy seriously? Because she's an ill-prepared, underqualified rube who has very little experience and a limited world view outside of her isolated life in Alaska, that's why. That's certiainly why I am having trouble taking her seriously.

All the rubbish about her family is fallout from that fact, as is her small-minded, small-town behavior as governor trying to settle a family vendetta. She's a rube.

It's actually more rational to NOT take her seriously. Afterall she could remain on the ticket and potentially BE the next in line after McCain. That is something to be seriously afraid of.


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I'm not, Billy.

If you want to talk to the people who made this public, talk to Josh, Greg, Eric, Sully, and a lot of the MSM.

Not me.

You are way off here and you can't stand it - but that's ok. I get you very well.

I must say, Ms. Tena, you were one of the few around here that "got it" from day one.

That'll make you mighty unpopular with some of the 'boys.'

Hang in there.

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Here's the Reuters link -

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSN0243503220080902?virtualBrandChannel=10112

Keep telling yourselves about how righteous y'all are.

Planned Implosion. Kids are the victims. Niiiice.

Take the conversation back, let's discuss her successor and McCains horrid ploy to mess with this election. Cheap political points, at the expense of a downs syndrome infant and a 17-year-old, healthy, normal, girl-child. Her parents are the abnormal scum.

McCain's not stupid. This was planned, and that makes me pretty angry.

What I don't understand is, if it makes you angry, why don't you take it out on McCain?

Don't you all see what Palin and McCain did?

They didn't answer the rumor only play 3 card Monty and move everyone's attention from her behavior and poor judgment in travelling from Dallas and endangering Trig to throwing her daughter under the bus.

If all Palin wanted to do was shut the entire controversy up was show some pics of the family around mom and baby in the hospital bed like we all take or release a copy of the birth certificate.

Boom! its over.

What does she do? Expose her daughter and her fiancee. Please.

This is not an answer to all the questions people were asking - not about Bristol - but about Palin and her behavior and judgment.

Palin threw her daughter and her own new son into the limelight for personal ambition.

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Exactly. Mrs. Pain could have just released the hospital records of her baby's birth along with an affidavit from the attending physician. CASE CLOSED. Move along folks; nothing to see here ... Why all the smoke and mirrors with an underage pregnant daughter cynically used as the smoke and mirror? In fact, Mrs. Palin deployed her own underage pregnant daughter's privacy as a counter-programming public-relations device to foil a rumor that she somehow never thought her own erratic behavior would spawn. Pretty piss-poor parenting, not to mention near political suicide.

I recommend that Billy Glad avert his sensitive eyes from politics as practiced by republicans and Clintons generically (and other Democrats occasionally) until the genuinely sincere Barack Obama wins a close election in November. Yes, Senator Obama should take the high road, as he often tried to do in the just-concluded Democratic Party primaries -- all attempts by the inept Clinton campaign to impugn his character notwithstanding. The nation expects much of Barack Obama for good and numerous reasons. He has to live up to that standard. Someone among us has to provide a decent example.

But no one expects anything from republicans except that they will try to use a baby blanket (if they think that will work) to innoculate themselves against legitimate criticism of their reckless and unstable standard-bearer. So shredding -- with good taste, of course -- the republicans' own pre-emptively raised baby blanket now becomes necessary for Democrats to win. I wish I did not think that sort of thing necessary, but against republicans one really has no choice but to accept political reality.

In any event, when an elected official (like Governor Palin or former President Bill Clinton) answers a question by creating more questions, people -- especially scandal-hungry reporters -- quickly smell a lie and just dig harder and deeper. Sanctimonious protestations about the ugliness of it all change nothing. As Hustler magazine publisher Larry Flynt likes to say (usually after busting another phony "family values" republican fraud): "Sure, I'm a bottom feeder. But look what I found when I got down there." You can never dive deep enough into the sewer not to find a republican already down there ahead of you.

And what does it make you if she doesn't withdraw and goes on to become the first woman VP of the United States? You want to stop her? Leave her family alone and attack her with the truth, not figments of your overheated imagination. Where in the world do you live these days? You just seem so angry and irrelevant.

From all the whining and cursing going on, I think I hit some nerves. Sorry. Judging by your comments, I thought you were completely anesthesized by now.

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but, Billy, what do you really think?

...will they name the next one "Juneau?"

No way they name the next one Juneau.

She's a small town hockey mom and Juneau represents the fat hand of government.

Well, I'm certainly learnin' lots here - got a regular School Of Life happenin'. Mud is what works... AND we got 101 things we can take that idiot Palin down with. It's self-righteous to say don't hit the kids... AND Obama's a stand-up guy for saying "Don't hit the kids." Yesterday the "hatred of women" was running like a "tide" that we all should try & stop... AND it's the taking her seriously that adds to the hysteria. It makes women feel bad to try to imagine whether the GOP intended to rebrand itself as Teddy Roosevelt... AND tonight the GOP's speakers & Chris Matthews agreed that they're gonna try to run as "Two Teddy Roosevelts."

And to not buy any of this makes us egotistical AND chauvinist.

Sounds serious. Tough. Funny though. Smells like horseshit.

Billy's original post is right not only as a moral position -- pushing this story makes you a gossiper and a liar since you have to pretend it has political significance to do it -- but is right as a political position too. All this gossiping and bitchy high school mean-spirited crap will backfire.

It is a distraction from her weakness as a candidate. Eventually a narrative wil emerge in the media that says the left has been sliming her and that it is unfair and irrelevant and the opportunity to effectively criticize her will have passed.

I am sure it seems that it is "playing hardball" like the republicans do. Ultimately, it undercuts one of the key tenets of Obama's run for the presidency: a change from sleazeball politics. And, it will, finally, seem as though Obama (whose campaign will be held responsible for the gossiping trash) stooped to attack a young woman and a family for political gain via surrogates.

Palin seems to embody wholly the Bush-Rove political ethos of personal patronage and patrimonialism. As a politician, she seems cravenly opportunistic and unprincipled. With regard to policy, her lack of understanding of national issues and the misguided principles that would guide her to develop policy in the future seem dangerous from my perspective.

There is enough there to discredit her as a VP candidate and to call into question McCain's judgment.

Don't pretend her daughter's choices are politically relevant. It makes you look dishonest.


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Again, I cannot even begin to count the number of times that the Clinton campaign (and their supporters) mocked Barack Obamba -- or "Obambi," as Maureen Dowd likes to call him -- for not having the balls to attack and discredit the republicans before their expected and patented character-assassination attacks "defined" him (among the majority of low-information voters) as as an unacceptable foreign muslim traitor who had fathered two black children.

I agree that Barack Obama and Joe Biden have to keep to the high road while -- and only as long as -- the republicans continue shooting themselves in the feet, face, ass, and groin. But the press and people of America who feel betrayed by the republicans and their heroes Deputy Dubya and Sheriff Dick have every right and intention to keep providing the repugnant ones with even more of their own discredited ammunition.

The republicans wanted to steal a few 24/7 news cycles from Barack Obam over the Labor Day weekend. Panama-John McBush somehow thought that springing the completely unknown and unvetted Governor Palin on the American people would do the trick and guarantee him the news spotlight. Unfortunately for Panama-John and Mrs. What's-Her-Name, his reckless gamble has guaranteed him BAD-NEWS, 24/7, during his own nominating convention. Pure, poetic justice.

No Democrat has to attack the cynical republican baby blanket directly or obviously, much less as offical party policy. Yet the preyed-upon wolves, moose, and polar bears of Alaska -- not to mention the betrayed American people -- deserve their moment of simple schadenfreude. And we Democrats can surely think of creative ways to -- sorrowfully and with great reluctance, of course -- keep this Keystone Cops farce going for as long as possible. If pursuing legitimate unanswered questions (professionally called "raising doubts") will keep the republicans disorganized and on the defensive, then we'll just have to hold our noses and win.

We Democrats didn't start this republican mess; the republicans did it themselves. Besides, we Democrats don't normally have either the stomach or the ruthless flair for such domestic realpolitik. Republicans always tauntingly say this about us when another of our intelligent, forthright candidates loses another presidential election. All things considered, then, I don't suppose we should look this particular gift horse in the mouth, so to speak. "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride," goes the old saying. We beggars just got our wish. So if we ride this broken-down, swayback republican opportunity as far and as humanely as possible, then I don't see why we shouldn't.

We were told that Hillary had unleashed the worst Obama could face and that we didn't need fighters in Washington anymore, that it was too 90's.

I have a question about vetting when it comes to governors. I used to think of vetting as being about qualifications and making sure there was nothing about a candidate's record that could affect the national interest. For example, Eagleton's psychiatric problems.

I guess now the vetting is about finding stuff that could be politically embarrassig, whether it has anything to do with the interests of the country or not.

As I understand it, Palin already has been investigated by the FBI and has top security clearances. Because of the missile defense systems and other military installations in Alaska, she gets high-level defense briefings -- maybe even more classified info than Senators get.

So what do we care if McCain "properly" vetted her for political dirt or not? It's just more sanctimonious crap, pretending that McCain's judgment is flawed because his vetters didn't find out something they apparently found out anyway, but decided wasn't relevant.

Turns out our position is she is qualified by the FBI and DOD to get top secret national security briefings on missile defense, but not qualified to run with McCain because her daughter got pregnant?

Please don't count on me to run with that crap.

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"As I understand it, Palin already has been investigated by the FBI and has top security clearances. Because of the missile defense systems and other military installations in Alaska, she gets high-level defense briefings -- maybe even more classified info than Senators get."

Evidence, please?

Google it. You have a bad habit of coming on to threads and saying evidence please. Learn something about how your government works. Or continue to provide evidence of your laziness and ignorance, bear who dances.

You made the statement. The burden of proof is on you, not on others to disprove it.

You made the statement. The burden of proof is on you, not on others to disprove it.

Sorry about the double post.

TPM is really on the fritz these days.

It's your reckless posting that's to blame. We are going to have to vet you more carefully before we let you post again. We'll post a 70 question form for you to fill out shortly.

It would be nice to get more detail on security clearances. And sharing your google sources is not so hard. here's one of the first things I found. It is accurate:

From marc Ambinder (atlantic.com)

Palin And The FBI Background Check -- Updated

01 Sep 2008 01:52 pm
The Federal Bureau of Investigation did not participate in the vetting of Gov. Sarah Palin and did not conduct a background check as part of the process, an FBI spokesman said today.

The Washington Post reported Sunday, citing an interview with campaign manager Rick Davis, that the vetting process "included reviews of financial and other personal data, an FBI background check and considerable discussion among the handful of McCain advisers nvolved in the deliberations.

"In general, we do not do vetting for political campaigns except as it might regard investigations needed for security clearances," said John Miller, the chief FBI spokesperson.

The FBI did not participate in a vet, nor did it run a background check of Gov. Palin as part of the process.

Palin might already have a clearance that relates to her duties as governor. But the FBI can't speak to that, and in any event, those investigations wouldn't be accessible to the McCain campaign anyway.

Thanks for the info, but we're not talking about the McCain campaign's vetting. We're talking about those very same security clearance investigations all governors and other office holders get before they get the DOD info. My point was that there is no national interest served by the political "vetting." Only political interests and gotchas.

Here's a tidbit from a Palin fan. Share it with resident expert markg if you will.

"Before you dismiss that Commander of the Alaska National Guard stuff. This came from a reader who plays the game and it jibes with my knowledge.

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It’s on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.

As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Her exposure to classified material may rival even Biden's.

She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country's defense. Given Alaska's proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don't even know about.

According to the Washington Post, she first met with McCain in February, but nobody ever found out. This is a woman used to keeping secrets.

She can be entrusted with our national security, because she already is."

You smart guys should be over at the National Review On Line, showing those dummies up if you can, instead of pontificating in the TPM echo chamber all day.

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Billy, this is some weak shit. I did Google it and all I get is the same sort of stuff that you've put here from TNR. That's why I asked for the evidence. Since there are vital military ops all over the U.S., I'm skeptical that the Governor of Alaska gets some particular access. Also the fact that the McCain campaign hasn't directly trumpeted such a fact makes me dubious.

Are you serious about that TNR quote? She can keep a secret because she met McCain at the governor's conference in February?

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As I understand it, Palin already has been investigated by the FBI and has top security clearances. Because of the missile defense systems and other military installations in Alaska, she gets high-level defense briefings -- maybe even more classified info than Senators get.

Sorry Billy that's bullshit. See if you can find a source that doesn't lie to you. Sarah Palin can't issue orders for the "missile shield" anymore than the governor of North Dakota can take us to DefCon 4 or launch an attack on Russia from the silos in his state. What's more if you think the Pentagon briefs politicians on this very classified, as yet inoperable junk boondoggle system willingly you probably believe Diebold makes reliable voting equipment they're proud to have vetted too.

So what do we care if McCain "properly" vetted her for political dirt or not? It's just more sanctimonious crap, pretending that McCain's judgment is flawed because his vetters didn't find out something they apparently found out anyway, but decided wasn't relevant.

Here's a relevant piece of information for you. As governor of Alaska Sarah Palin has for the last 16 months been in charge of the Alaska Army Nat'l Guard. She can deploy it within the state during natural disasters. It is a force composed of approximately 1850 soldiers. As far as I know there hasn't been an emergency in Alaska that's given her cause to issue such orders. She is not authorized or responsible for their recruitment, procurement, or deploying them anywhere outside Alaska. If Canada, the Japanese or the Russians invaded Alaska she'd have no more control over the battle than you or me.

She said recently she doesn't know what John McCain's plan is for Iraq. Doesn't even know if we have a plan though she thinks one would be nice. She also said recently she doesn't even know what the Vice President does.

She has repeatedly lied about the inappropriate, illegal pressure she, her husband and her underlings applied to Monaghan in that firing scandal. She's now trying to claim executive privilege to hide email evidence from the prosecutor. The private lawyer she hired the other day with Alaska state funds is already doing his best to delay, obfuscate and kill the investigation.

She made what had always been in the past a small town non partisan election in little Wasilla into a battle over abortion and other wingnut national hot button issues. She won a "landslide victory" by about 600 to 400 votes. She fired virtually all the dept managers in town when she became mayor saying she couldn't trust them to be loyal to her, even the ones who supported her candidacy. She tried to coerce the head librarian in town to ban books she found objectionable.

As mayor she hired one of Abramoff's cronies to lobby for earmarks for Wasilla. Thanks to her, Ted Stevens and Don Young this town of then 6700 people got $27 million in federal government largesse. She supported the Bridge to Nowhere long after it was DOA in DC.

Far from being a reformer who took on the old boy network in Alaska she led "Ted Stevens Excellence in Public Service, Inc.," a 527 group that could raise unlimited funds from corporate donors from 2003 to 2005. It wasn't until after McCain nominated her that she scrubbed Stevens' glowing endorsement of her from her website.

We've seen her kind of politician before. She's not qualified to be Vice President and McCain whiffed on the pick showing just how bad his judgment really is.

Congratulations! You just made a cogent argument against Palin, and by inference McCain, and you never mentioned her kids, her or their sex lives, or the fact that she's a woman.

Why do you think your colleagues in the echo chamber, the reader blogs or the front page can't manage to do that? And why couldn't you do it before I called you on it?

You're capable of learning. Means you're not stupid. Come to think of it, I just learned something, too. I was convinced you were.

LOL, you get the cogent argument you've been asking for, and you immediately turn the conversation right back on Palin's family. You've made a reasonable request - it works both ways.

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Sarah Palin cut money out of the Alaska state budget for unwed mothers. She's been a huge advocate for abstinence only education which doesn't even work in her own household where of all places you'd think they are pretty strict about it.

Republicans love that Sarah "chose" to have her baby with downs syndrome and her daughter "chose" to have her baby daddy's kid. If Sarah Palin had her way there'd be no choice about it. John McCain and Sarah Palin would make it illegal to choose any other course. Absolute government control over the reproductive organs of every women and girl in the country.

That's not change we can believe in.

Thanks for providing an example of what I'm talking about. Also, please try to remember that you can elect state officials who won't pass anti-abortion laws. Try it. You might like it.

Interesting that you think Eagleton's "psychiatric problems" affected the national interest. Should the public be entitled to psychiatric evaluations of all the candidates?

That's an interesting question. Eagleton turned himself in to the doctors. I believe it was for depression, and he actually received shock treatments. Personally, I don't have as much confidence in psychiatry as some do, but I think that the fact that Eagleton felt in need of help and agreed to treatment is an indication that he might have needed help. All in all, I'd rather have a President who felt in possession of his faculties and able to make it on his own, although I realize he or she might not know they were mad as a hatter. Nixon for instance.

But do I think we should require psychiatric exams? I think not. IQ tests? I think not. The office is a political one, after all. Why give the doctors the power to destroy a candidate? That power should be reserved for us, the mob.

But we have no right to destroy their families in the bargain.

I agree in principle with Billy, but let's not forget how this news came to light. It was put forth by the McCain campaign with the rationale that they needed to tamp down Internet rumors about Bristol being the mother of the Down's baby. The assumption that everybody seems to have swallowed without question is that this is the only way that the rumor could have been quashed was by exposing this bit of tragic family business The truth is that they could have found some other way. Ask yourself how they would have handled it n the absence of Bristol's pregnancy.

I heartily agree that Bristol is off limits, but the circumstances of how this information was shared is fair game, as is the topic of Palin's apparent willingness, nay eagerness, to put her children in harm's way.

(I originally and mistakenly posted this under "Obama Who?" My apologies.)

Why wouldn't someone take her candidacy seriously? Because she's an ill-prepared, underqualified rube who has very little experience and a limited world view outside of her isolated life in Alaska, that's why. That's certiainly why I am having trouble taking her seriously.

All the rubbish about her family is fallout from that fact, as is her small-minded, small-town behavior as governor trying to settle a family vendetta. She's a rube.

It's actually more rational to NOT take her seriously. Afterall she could remain on the ticket and potentially BE the next in line after McCain. That is something to be seriously afraid of.


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"She's a rube.."

Touche'

Couldn't be stated more simply or more accurately.

The Rube-publicans, now there's a new one...

Very nice...the RUBE-publicans. The Deliverance Party...diddle-ling-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding.

Yes! A perfect example of a woman rube, clinging to her guns and religion. Duh. Thank god the Obama campaign is being run by professionals.

But here's the problem. Since your so much smarter than Obama and Axelrod who are staring at Palin like a couple of cows looking at a new gate, how would you go about wooing those rubes you alienated but need in your corner if you are going to get elected? By exposing and trashing one of their own?

I'll be posting this shortly.

"Sarah Palin Is A Rook On The Seventh."

Anybody know which chess master said: "A rook on the seventh is a bone in the throat?"

Yes! A perfect example of a woman rube, clinging to her guns and religion. Duh. Thank god the Obama campaign is being run by professionals.

But here's the problem. Since your so much smarter than Obama and Axelrod who are staring at Palin like a couple of cows looking at a new gate, how would you go about wooing those rubes you alienated but need in your corner if you are going to get elected? By exposing and trashing one of their own?

I'll be posting this shortly.

"Sarah Palin Is A Rook On The Seventh."

Anybody know which chess master said: "A rook on the seventh is a bone in the throat?"

"Before you dismiss that Commander of the Alaska National Guard stuff. This came from a reader who plays the game and it jibes with my knowledge.

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It’s on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.

As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Her exposure to classified material may rival even Biden's.


She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.


Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country's defense. Given Alaska's proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don't even know about.

According to the Washington Post, she first met with McCain in February, but nobody ever found out. This is a woman used to keeping secrets.

She can be entrusted with our national security, because she already is."

LOL. From the National Review on line.

Hey. Are you an American abroad, or a foreigner? Nothing like a sweater in the summertime.

American.

Very nice...the RUBE-publicans. The Deliverance Party...diddle-ling-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding.

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Billy Glad

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