I agree with a lot of what you say, but this is not one of those times.
This is an old myth on the same scale as the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. Note that if McCain is complicit, then Kerry is also complicit. It's standard conspiracy theory fare, and I don't put any stock in it.
I dunno. The author, Sydney H. Schanberg, won a Pulitzer prize for his New York Times coverage of the fall of Cambodia in 1975. This isn't some wacko blog--The Nation Institute is a respectable organization (an offshoot of The Nation magazine), with respectable and respected contributors. I don't think I'd write this story off so easily.
Point well made, but I have heard this story before. I'd bet good money there are no living POWs in Vietnam, although I wouldn't rule out the cover-up of dead ones.
Still, if McCain is guilty, doesn't that make Kerry guilty as well? Not saying that's a reason to cover up the truth, if indeed it is the truth, but it should give one pause when there is bipartisan cooperation involved. (Not that there can't be bipartisan cooperation to lie, cheat, and steal.)
Yeah, this is one of those difficult issues. It's like the Keating Five scandal, which many Democrats think should be brought up. Only one problem: McCain was the only Republican involved. The other four were Democrats. Probably best to let that dog lie.
According to an x-VC officer, the POWs were eventually executed.
The available credible evidence clearly shows the questions asked in the article are valid and not conspiratorial.
You know what? Even assuming that he's right, and that it's all true, it's one of those things that's just too darn difficult to explain to people. Too many mental loops required to be an effective attack.
I'll refer you to this absurd but apparently effective ad to show you the problem:
This ad is very effective among undecided voters. Why? I'm not sure. I think it's because all the people with half a brain have already made up their minds, and many of the people who haven't decided make their decisions based upon emotional responses. Cute wolves, shot dead, and Palin will give you money for their paws. You would have to be an idiot to let this type of ad sway you, but then again, if you haven't made your mind up by now, maybe that's just what you are.
So my point is, to capture undecideds we can't use reasons that are persuasive to us -- clearly, those reasons are not persuasive to them, or they would already be on board. We have to figure out how they are different, and find a way that appeals to those differences.
"Too many mental loops required to be an effective attack."
This issue, perhaps only to those of my generation, has implications far beyond this election or political strategy. That was an emotionally costly time in our lives and, for many of us, important to the foundation of our own beliefs.
It is at the heart of what makes me a liberal democrat.
Aerial wolf hunting, or POWs?
"Too many mental loops required to be an effective attack."
This issue, perhaps only to those of my generation, has implications far beyond this election or political strategy. That was an emotionally costly time in our lives and, for many of us, important to the foundation of our own beliefs.
It is at the heart of what makes me a liberal democrat.
What McCain is hiding is that his representation of being a war hero is no more truthful than anything else that is coming out of both sides of his mouth. Nobody is putting this out there, but I would recommend that you do two things, Google "Songbird McCain" and read some of that stuff and then go to this website: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/
Paints a far different picture of McCain than he wants the redneck vote to hear. They tend to despise cowards and traitors. He humbly admitted in his speech that they "worked him over pretty good" and he broke, and of course we're all wondering to ourselves if we would have broken, too, so we're too ashamed to question if any of that malarky is true. There are many Vietnam veterans who believe he wasn't worked over and that he was a collaborator who gave up targeting information to secure medical care and special privileges.
I will be attacked on this board by saying this and those who attack me will say that it can't be true because if it were, it would have come out by now. Let me tell you the two reasons it hasn't.
1. There was a pact amongst the POWs that whatever any of them did to survive that experience would never be talked about after they were released, because it would not be fair for anybody who had not lived through the experience to judge those who had. Sort of the "band of brothers" version of "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." So you won't hear POW vets talking against him, but you won't hear them supporting him, either. Have you noticed that?
2. One of McCain's "accomplishments" as a senator was the normalization of relations with Vietnam so that we could put that horrible war behind us. But he's not really putting it behind us by reminding us of it constantly, so what was the real reason for his involvement? One of the negotiating points was that all of the records would be permanently sealed. This made a lot of the POW/MIA groups very angry because it ended their efforts to find out what had happened to their loved ones. What was the benefit to McCain? The sealing of those records meant that he would never again have to fear being confronted by what those records would reveal about what he said and did, so now he is free to campaign as a war hero without fear of real contradiction.
Finally, even if you reject all of the above, and you are free to, what is without contradiction is that the targeting positions that he revealed to his captors revealed this horrible truth: That in all of our names his job was to fly over Vietnam and drop bombs on innocent civilians in hospitals, temples and schools. Think about that. Innocent civilians. Yeah, it was his job and he was just following orders, but isn't that why we had those quaint little trials over in Germany after WWII, to send a signal to the world that following orders, when it's criminal to do so, is a punishable offense.
And, lastly, and I think this goes to the psychological base of John McCain, have you ever wondered why, when it is almost political suicide to do so, he routinely fails to support veterans? What dark secrets of his soul makes him do that when political wisdom would seem to be that it holds such dangers for him. Is this part of his recklessness? Is it just a revelation of his true self? I think it may have to do with something I remember from an old Nick Nolte movie where he rages to explain tht the team isn't important to the management, that the team are just "equipment." Well, if our soldiers are just equipment, we don't have to adequately support them or take care of them because they are replaceable, just like guns and tanks and bombs, and once their usefulness has ended by their death or disabling, they can be kicked to the curb and forgotten, just as McCain kicked his disfigured first wife and their family to the curb when he saw a chance to win the big prize of a filthy rich beer heiress 17 years his junior. He's reaching for a really big prize now and he's using a coin to earn it that is both debased and counterfeit.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but this is not one of those times.
This is an old myth on the same scale as the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. Note that if McCain is complicit, then Kerry is also complicit. It's standard conspiracy theory fare, and I don't put any stock in it.
September 19, 2008 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I dunno. The author, Sydney H. Schanberg, won a Pulitzer prize for his New York Times coverage of the fall of Cambodia in 1975. This isn't some wacko blog--The Nation Institute is a respectable organization (an offshoot of The Nation magazine), with respectable and respected contributors. I don't think I'd write this story off so easily.
September 19, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Point well made, but I have heard this story before. I'd bet good money there are no living POWs in Vietnam, although I wouldn't rule out the cover-up of dead ones.
Still, if McCain is guilty, doesn't that make Kerry guilty as well? Not saying that's a reason to cover up the truth, if indeed it is the truth, but it should give one pause when there is bipartisan cooperation involved. (Not that there can't be bipartisan cooperation to lie, cheat, and steal.)
September 19, 2008 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, this is one of those difficult issues. It's like the Keating Five scandal, which many Democrats think should be brought up. Only one problem: McCain was the only Republican involved. The other four were Democrats. Probably best to let that dog lie.
September 19, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
According to an x-VC officer, the POWs were eventually executed.
The available credible evidence clearly shows the questions asked in the article are valid and not conspiratorial.
September 19, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what? Even assuming that he's right, and that it's all true, it's one of those things that's just too darn difficult to explain to people. Too many mental loops required to be an effective attack.
I'll refer you to this absurd but apparently effective ad to show you the problem:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/outside-box-ad-moves-voter-sentiments.html
This ad is very effective among undecided voters. Why? I'm not sure. I think it's because all the people with half a brain have already made up their minds, and many of the people who haven't decided make their decisions based upon emotional responses. Cute wolves, shot dead, and Palin will give you money for their paws. You would have to be an idiot to let this type of ad sway you, but then again, if you haven't made your mind up by now, maybe that's just what you are.
So my point is, to capture undecideds we can't use reasons that are persuasive to us -- clearly, those reasons are not persuasive to them, or they would already be on board. We have to figure out how they are different, and find a way that appeals to those differences.
September 19, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Too many mental loops required to be an effective attack."
This issue, perhaps only to those of my generation, has implications far beyond this election or political strategy. That was an emotionally costly time in our lives and, for many of us, important to the foundation of our own beliefs.
It is at the heart of what makes me a liberal democrat.
September 19, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aerial wolf hunting, or POWs?
September 19, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Too many mental loops required to be an effective attack."
This issue, perhaps only to those of my generation, has implications far beyond this election or political strategy. That was an emotionally costly time in our lives and, for many of us, important to the foundation of our own beliefs.
It is at the heart of what makes me a liberal democrat.
September 19, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
What McCain is hiding is that his representation of being a war hero is no more truthful than anything else that is coming out of both sides of his mouth. Nobody is putting this out there, but I would recommend that you do two things, Google "Songbird McCain" and read some of that stuff and then go to this website: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/
Paints a far different picture of McCain than he wants the redneck vote to hear. They tend to despise cowards and traitors. He humbly admitted in his speech that they "worked him over pretty good" and he broke, and of course we're all wondering to ourselves if we would have broken, too, so we're too ashamed to question if any of that malarky is true. There are many Vietnam veterans who believe he wasn't worked over and that he was a collaborator who gave up targeting information to secure medical care and special privileges.
I will be attacked on this board by saying this and those who attack me will say that it can't be true because if it were, it would have come out by now. Let me tell you the two reasons it hasn't.
1. There was a pact amongst the POWs that whatever any of them did to survive that experience would never be talked about after they were released, because it would not be fair for anybody who had not lived through the experience to judge those who had. Sort of the "band of brothers" version of "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." So you won't hear POW vets talking against him, but you won't hear them supporting him, either. Have you noticed that?
2. One of McCain's "accomplishments" as a senator was the normalization of relations with Vietnam so that we could put that horrible war behind us. But he's not really putting it behind us by reminding us of it constantly, so what was the real reason for his involvement? One of the negotiating points was that all of the records would be permanently sealed. This made a lot of the POW/MIA groups very angry because it ended their efforts to find out what had happened to their loved ones. What was the benefit to McCain? The sealing of those records meant that he would never again have to fear being confronted by what those records would reveal about what he said and did, so now he is free to campaign as a war hero without fear of real contradiction.
Finally, even if you reject all of the above, and you are free to, what is without contradiction is that the targeting positions that he revealed to his captors revealed this horrible truth: That in all of our names his job was to fly over Vietnam and drop bombs on innocent civilians in hospitals, temples and schools. Think about that. Innocent civilians. Yeah, it was his job and he was just following orders, but isn't that why we had those quaint little trials over in Germany after WWII, to send a signal to the world that following orders, when it's criminal to do so, is a punishable offense.
And, lastly, and I think this goes to the psychological base of John McCain, have you ever wondered why, when it is almost political suicide to do so, he routinely fails to support veterans? What dark secrets of his soul makes him do that when political wisdom would seem to be that it holds such dangers for him. Is this part of his recklessness? Is it just a revelation of his true self? I think it may have to do with something I remember from an old Nick Nolte movie where he rages to explain tht the team isn't important to the management, that the team are just "equipment." Well, if our soldiers are just equipment, we don't have to adequately support them or take care of them because they are replaceable, just like guns and tanks and bombs, and once their usefulness has ended by their death or disabling, they can be kicked to the curb and forgotten, just as McCain kicked his disfigured first wife and their family to the curb when he saw a chance to win the big prize of a filthy rich beer heiress 17 years his junior. He's reaching for a really big prize now and he's using a coin to earn it that is both debased and counterfeit.
September 19, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink